|
John,
I agree with the fact that many of those in the ministry are underpaid as professionals. There are those who have invested in a seminary education and others who have added degrees as well. If these folks were to be in any other profession they would be sought after as, "Best in the Field". For these individuals I think congregations need to take a serious look at why they are treating these people as less than professionals.
I do want to interject that just like the other areas of the professional world, a person in ministry needs to put in their time and effort to get that salary. A laid back individual who is not actively doing should not receive a yearly increase just because they are on the payroll of the church. No one deserves a raise they earn it. Many churches do themselves an injustice by not having a tool with to measure those on the payroll. Our previous pastor was given a list of minimal work to complete in a month's time and turned in an activity sheet to our Ruling Elders. Some on the board had issues with this, but it was only a tool for accountability for our pastor. He did not find it a threat and instead found it a great tool for reflection when he became down about his own ministry goals.
That said, I think it is important to really look at any data shared when it comes to salary professionals. What other benefits are not being included in the $ amount. Our pastor fets free medical appointments, his house was paid for including repairs as long as he lives there, he has 4 weeks of vacation but has never been denied extra time off, his taxes are done free, he receives free financial counselling if needed, he receives discounts at local auto repair shops, he has unlimited use of church vehicles, his major medical and health insurance is paid, he has an excellent retirement program, he can build his personal library free, and he has a 0% interest line of credit with the church for financial emergencies.
What would the value of these be? Well it's enough to keep him at this church for 11+ years and he doesn't intend to go anywhere. One might say he has it pretty good. His church membership is 120, average attendance is less than 90 a Sunday. I think what made the difference is that he has built a personal relationship with his church. He is what we call "approachable". I find that not all people in the ministry are. His church really knows and loves him for who he is. For those who aren't receiving financial advancements might look at relationships and whether their expectations are to high for those they are serving. A church of 12 members will likely not be able to pay a salary of $45,000/yr, no matter how much they love them or the Lord.
Enough said.
In Christ,
GreyBear
|
|
Posted 01/31/2006 09:01am
Author: greybear
|
|
|
|
|
Where I'm Coming From:
My wife and I served in the ministry for 2 years at a boys home for $28k/yr. We went trusting God. Our house sold a year after we left for less than we bought it for 8 years earlier. I spent every dime of saving and investment just to keep our heads above water. House Parenting does not permit for a second job even if you wanted one. Two of my children were assaulted during that time. I am starting all over again financially the same as I was over 15 years ago. And trying desperately to repair our family. The cost of ministry is high no matter what kind.
[*] Those in the ministry deserve the best salaries because they serve God and people for some reason don't seem to be focusing on that issue.
No kidding, been there. Most people see the ministry as servanthood in action. It's not to be about money, we are to just to be happy to be selected by God to serve Him and worry about reward in Heaven. Might be something there.
[*] Small Pastor salaries may effect whether a church closes.
*Most small closing churches have a history that lead them to decreasing numbers. Many have lost any drive to "do" God's will or work. They just want to show up on Sunday. They are tired and some are physically dieing. For a few it may simply be that God is done in that building. Pastors don't make or break a church God or Satan do.
[*] Some are being grossly overpaid while others work 2 jobs to make ends meet.
*Fact of absolutely and paid business or company. This can only be regulated by those in positions to make the rules. Get to one of these position and change the rules.
In Christ,
GreyBear
|
|
Posted 01/31/2006 11:24am
Author: greybear
|
|
|
|
|
Folks,
This is an interesting and heated topic so I hope no one takes offense to what I am going to write here. There are many ways at looking at salaries
since I am the treasurer at my church I look at them as a percentage of total income. Many times there are small churches that pay up to
50% of the total income of the church. Our church of 300 tries to keep the total salary base to 33% right now this is at 50%.
What concerns me when I hear pastors of all kinds discussing salaries I wonder first hand, is this their calling or not. There are many ways to make
a buck in this great country I would not stand in the way of anyone who wants to make a good salary. The problem is that in the recent postings
it appears there is a tone of finger pointing that the "board members" who are setting salaries are not being just and in some cases maybe they are not. In our
case we had a pastor that was making 2X the average salary of his constituents and was still not happy. Living in the most expensive area (not in the city where the church was) This attitude caused a division in the body and ultimately hurt Gods church.
It really is not a matter of paying a fair salary, there are many times we wish we could pay more but there must be some consideration
to the economics and the churches ability to pay a "good" wage. I know that pastors are on call 27/7, I know that the job is tough and the pay is not great but what
did you get into it for? Gods blessings or mans?
I think this problem of "salary first" is becoming systemic in nature. We have interviewed many young men for a youth pastor position and many that
have come the first thing they want to know is how much salary are they going to get. If you do this in the business world you get shown the door! and that is
what we did with these.
Regards
|
|
Posted 01/02/2007 08:42am
Author: treasurer
|
|
|
|
|
Well let me share my 2 cents As the wife of a pastor who leads a small church I can say that salary is a big issue. Surprisingly, it's not a big issue to us.
Let me first say that our salary is not out of the church's range as far as budget is concerned. We aren't pulling down 45k a year that's for sure LOL
There are people in our congregation (those of the older generation) who seem to think that the money they "pay" us is huge and "why do we need that much money?" "Why are we paying for pastor's gas to do hospital visits, he makes $$ a week from us." Those kinds of comments are hard to take gracefully and with Christian mindset.
Money is such a huge focus for some of our people that the pastor's salary is a big bullseye for them. Let's not mention that we have no insurance (life or health), no real benefits that man can offer BUT and this is a big BUT, God is our provider. Not the church, not the people who sit in the pews . . . Jesus Christ is our provider.
My husband works a part-time job to supplement our income and I also work part-time. We are perfectly content with what we have. No complaints and certainly no desire to get more money out of the church in fact at a recent business meeting (which I loathe!) my husband made it clear that he didn't want any sort of raise from them. He stated that if he needed more money he'd work harder at his other job.
We definately need some humble-pie in alot of our churches regarding pastor salaries. I'm all for blessing the socks off your pastors but if it becomes a status symbol and something that is "expected" maybe a season of "want" is what is needed for some of these pastors who seem to be defined by their salary.
I thank God daily for our little church even w/it's "issues".
In Christ Alone,
Marilyn
|
|
Posted 03/09/2007 06:58am
Author: thepastorswife
|
|
|
|
|
I think that was a very important point to make. Our pastors' work their tails off. My youth pastor teaches Sr. High, Jr. High, Jr. High Sunday School, Sr. High Sunday School, Drop Zone, and a Dicipleship group. He spends the majority of his time at the church or at a church activity. A lot of spiritual and emotional work goes into the job as well. One thing I would like to praise, though, is that our pastors' get a lot of paid vacation time. I think that is very essential to their job. I think they could have their pay raised a little though. They deserve it. They poor their hearts and their lives into the lives of the youth in the church as well as the adults.
|
|
Posted 06/02/2007 04:57pm
Author: followerofchrist
|
|
|
|
|
Lets face it in American society their are some jobs you do and it has nothing to do with the money. My grandfather is a semi-retired minister. He had eight children and was the pastor of a small town church. He had to lay bricks in order to feed his family. He also farmed his land. He has worked hard his entire life so that he could continue to Preach and spread the word. To this day he still works and he is 82 years old. He does not complain. If you ask him about money he will tell you two things, one is that he is rich, maybe not in your eyes, but he is rich. Two that you should never chase the dollar or get money hungry.
I know every Pastor deserves a living wage, but ministry can not always pay that. I do feel that their could be a better way. In the Assemblies of God you have some Churches that could afford to sponsor other Churches and Pastors that don't. The larger wealthier churches should help to breach the gap and take care of there fellow ministers. Lets face it for every minister making 28,000 p/y their is a Mega Church with a millionaire for a Pastor. This is absurd and church members should address the issue. If you are tithing your money to the church then you have a say to where it is spent. Also, there is no rule on where your tithes go. If your church is not struggling, take a week of tithes every month and give them to a local church that is. Ask your Pastor if you sponsor another church. We can fix the problem. Often unless someone addresses it, most of us do not realize it is that bad.
|
|
Posted 06/03/2007 12:04pm
Author: devinemommie
|
|
|
|
|
As the parent of a minister I have to say that if I had to do it all over again, I would try and guide my child into a different field. After having to take out personal loans for her to attend a Master's Comission, then 4 years of college, I would hope that the churches would at least provide enough for minster's to live and to be able to accept their financial responsibilities. Now, 3 years after graduation, I am still paying for loans that I either co-signed or took out parent loans with the understanding that I was not paying for college. Tjhis is so unfare to parents who are struggling themselves to make ends meet.
I am not proud that my child is a minister, what I am is losing my home from all of these loans. When I have to make a choice between paying my mortage or paying my child's student loan - what decision should I make? Or do I get to eat this week or have heat? There should be some better financial checking to make sure that the parents can afford to continue supporting this child long after they graduate from college. This appears to be now a calling for rich kids and not for poor kids.
My only regret is that I did not know then what I know now. After graduation, my daughter's 1st ministry she was making around $3 an hour and working about 60 hours a week. This left no time for a 2nd job. Now in her 2nd ministry - she is not even being paid but again working around 60 hours a week.
This may have been a career at one point where your families wealth did not matter, but unfortunately, we live in a very expensive world and as a parent I should not have to continue to pay for my grown up child. What is going to happen if she marries, which she says will only be a minister, and then has children? If she cannot support herself, she will not be able to support a husband and children as well.
Going ablsolutely broke from paying all thesde loans!
|
|
Posted 07/16/2007 11:28am
Author: goingbroke
|
|
|
|
|
In response to Going Broke,
I wholeheartedly understand the frustration with paying back student loans. My wife has a bachelor's degree in psychology and owes 30,000 for her school loans. After I'm done with Bible College I will owe 40,000.
I have no idea how we are going to pay these loans, as they are going to add up to hundreds (maybe thousands) of dollars a month, for the next 40 years, that we don't really have to spend, because pastors are paid so little.
I sometimes wish that I could do any other job and have peace...
However, the call of God remains strong on my life and I must trust in Him to provide for me.
I have thought about asking the leadership of the AG to set up a scholarship/loan payback fund that church members could donate money to (such as STL, BGMC, etc.) to help those students already in our Bible colleges or those who have graduated and could use help paying back loans.
I truly believe that education is invaluable to the ministry, but the money issues are a major problem. I believe until we tweak the system to help those who want to seek education to better prepare themselves for God's Calling that we will be doing ourselves and our churches and big disservice. Those who could get a Bible Education won't, and because of it our pastors will be under-educated (notice I said, "under" not "un"--many pastors who don't have a formal education know the Bible and how to teach it better than I ever will), less effective, and those who feel the Call of God will choose other professions that are easier to live off of.
|
|
Posted 04/02/2008 02:40pm
Author: froman
|
|
|
|
|
Boy, this blogging stuff can keep you up all night if you're not careful. This is the second I've posted in my life, but I simply must let it out.
Two things:
1. How many Christians are perfectly content to pay for cable/satellite television (what's the real benefit?), new cars (when used can be perfectly suitable), and a host of other non-necessities while "struggling" to be generous in giving? Our churches ought to be FAT with money, overflowing. How is it possible that we can countenance our houses being in better shape than our places of worship? Since it's awkward for a pastor to say such things, let a respected deacon or lay leader stand in and lay this on thick: Why should our pastor and his/her family be forced to skimp and pinch and prove to us that they are sincere in their desire to serve? Why can we not richly bless those from whom we expect so much? Show me the love, everybody.
2. Would-be pastors: Before you get your head in the clouds and your financial situation in the gutter - learn about money! You need to be an expert in the pragmatic aspects of money BEFORE you get a "master's" in divinity. In my opinion (and that of the author of Proverbs), it is FOOLISH to borrow money to go to school: "The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is a slave to the lender." If you are in debt, get out of debt before you become a pastor. Then you will truly be serving only the One Master.
|
|
Posted 04/06/2008 12:04am
Author: atrest
|
|
|
|
|
One way for churches to better compensate their pastors without more expense is to make sure they take the IRS regulations into account when they set up the pastor's compensation package. Because pastors are considered "self-employed," their tax burden is greater. That makes allowances offered by the church a better deal for the church and the pastor. I found a great summary of ways to save here:
http://www.davidarnett.com/user/How%20to%20Increase%20a%20Pastors%20Pa y.doc
This works to the pastor's advantage because they get more compensation with less tax burden. (Allowances are not taxable income.) It works to the church's advantage because they may be able to hire a better pastor for the same amount of money just by reclassifying the expense.
The key is to make sure the allowances are set up correctly tax-wise and then make sure that there is documentation for every allowance that is reimbursed. Any allowance paid that does not have written substantiation becomes TAXABLE INCOME to the pastor, so don't let that slide. The church I worked for offered allowances for things like, continuing education, professional materials, housing and utilities and health expenses.
It may also be helpful to do some research into the average professional salary in your local economy. This is especially important for congregational churches who may not have as much input from a supervising entity in these matters. (Congregational churches make all decisions at the local level even if they are in voluntary association with other churches--Southern Baptists would be congregational. In contrast, connectional churches--like United Methodists--have district, conference and overall governing bodies whose ruling supersede any local decisions.)
On a side note: Until I worked at a church, I really had no idea just how much a pastor (and his family) have to sacrifice. Their lives are really not their own. And the devil is working against them at every turn. Make sure you keep them in your prayers!
A
|
|
Posted 05/15/2008 10:36pm
Author: savdbyluv
|
|
|
|
|
As a board member at my church I must say that the pastor's salary is a very hard issue at budget time. We are all aware that the bible says that we are to take care of our pastor's needs, but this is a difficult balancing act to say. Our church only averages 50 ppl a week and the pastor's salary and church paid benefits equal probably between 55-65% of our total budget. The worst part is that we all know that he by far deserves all we can give him but when we sometimes are not sure how to pay the other bills it makes it very difficult to warrent a further pay raise. Granted we did give him a small pay raise this yr but because he had not recieved a pay raise in the previous seven budgets.
|
|
Posted 01/11/2009 04:50pm
Author: cemeteryman
|
|
|
|
|
It seems that I always have mixed feelings, or issues that are hard to reconcile to each other!
I truly believe that pastors and their families sacrifice in innumerable ways to their church. I truly believe that they are asked more of, and have to pour more of their hearts, lives, souls, and minds into their jobs than just about any profession. Also, when you consider the ratio of salary to education of pastors, vs. some other professions ratio of salary to education, the difference is really appalling!
I also believe that you should only be in this field if you are called to it, and just like answering the call to any other profession, you need to prepare you heart for sacrifice of some kind.
Certainly, I believe that pastors should be paid more, and it shouldn't be like pulling teeth either!
Also, I know that while some of the salary amounts seem low, many churches (like mine) pay for many things that the average joe has to pay for himself... In my church he doesn't have to pay for gas for his car, home, home repair, fuel for his home, he has health insurance, and he doesn't have to pay for land tax... These are a few examples, and I'm not sure I have them all. Now, I know this isn't true for all pastor, but I'm sure that we are not the exception to the rule!
This is the one thing that I'm surprised no one has commented on, and maybe they haven't because they simply are not in this position, so I will. The lowest salary on the graph is $27,312 for a youth pastor... This is at least $6,000 more a year than my husband has ever made. His work supports himself, our home, our land, and the three of us. That's right. Food, clothing, shelter, taxes. Cars. We even buy things that we don't NEED sometimes. And get this, we are even planning on buying a home this spring! I know, you're thinking we're insanely in debt... But you know? We aren't. And no, we didn't win the lottery or get some huge inheritance either. Neither are we super-deprived and miserable. Throughout this whole past year, we have had such peace about our finances. Now, I don't know what cost of living is in New Jersey, or other highly populated areas, but it does seem strange that a salary that could support all this (and we even have some money saved!) can't support one man (I'm thinking of my brother here) and can't seem to be a worthy amount of contribution to a multi-person home. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm in the process of learning to be able to obtain a job to increase our cash flow, but my point remains. $27,312 is not a lot... But it really isn't a little either.
And just for a brain-bender: before I obtained that aforementioned peace I had to learn 1) the difference between a want and a need, and 2) God really means it when He says that he will provide everything we need. Really. He is a very creative God, you know.
|
|
Posted 01/11/2009 07:55pm
Author: whobelieve
|
|
|
|
|
With all due respect to whobelieve, you must live in a part of the country where your cost of living is very, very low, and for that you should thank God. Where I live, a two bedroom apartment rents for a minimum of $1,500 per month, utilities not included. That means that $18,000 of the salary goes for rent. And that's not even talking about trying to get into a house. Our gas prices are way above the national average due to the fact that every gallon of gas carries with it nearly 75 cents worth of taxes. Food prices are also inflated as a result of the other economic conditions. In fact, in our county a family of four is still considered to be at poverty level at $35,000 per year. $27,000 a year is not even close to a livable income where my family and I live.
My point is that I don't think you can draw conclusions stating that a person is in dire straits financially because they don't know the difference between a want and a need. $27,000 may be more than enough to supply the needs of a family where you live, but it barely scratches the surface here.
I would also add that while it is true that God will supply our needs, a church should never use that as an excuse to pay their pastor poorly. God will supply a pastor's needs, but His will is to use the people of the church to do that. If a church won't bless their pastor the way that God desires (obviously within the capabilities of the church), then He will move that pastor to a church that will.
Just something to think about. God bless.
|
|
Posted 02/14/2009 08:53pm
Author: tfdave
|
|
|
|
|
tfdave, I wonder if you missed the part where I said things like:
and:
and:
and:
Obviously, looking at this, which I truly mean, I am not saying that a pastor's salary should not be raised, or that pastor's (especially those who do not live in low cost areas) should just make do. I am merely saying that IN SOME CASES all people, even pastors, may be infected with the idea that they NEED when what is actually going on is that they only want. That is not to say, at all, that the church should not do everything they can to pay their pastor their due.
Thank you.
|
|
Posted 02/15/2009 06:00am
Author: whobelieve
|
|
|
|
|
It says in the bible that God will provide for your NEEDS, this does not mean that he will provide for all your WANTS. I believe that a great deal of the economic stress that the world is currently facing is in response to the lack of understanding of what a want is and what a need is. All people can fall in to this trap and i believe that pastors are no exception. We should be thankful for ALL that we have, for it is because of God that we have any of it. God provides for our needs and if he sees that we need more than he will provide it. When you go to buy something, most people just buy the name brand when your need for that product can be met at 1/2 the cost by not getting a name brand product. Pastors like all other people must live within their means and not spend all their time complaining that they do not have enough money to live on. All money belongs to God and he will dispers it as he sees fit. Also, how can a pastor be a true leader and shepard to his flock when he does not even truly know how to live by the word of God on something as trivial as money? I'm not saying that all pastors do this,but I believe that most of them that feel they are not getting enough money should look into their hearts and see if they are truly listening to God.
|
|
Posted 02/16/2009 07:43pm
Author: cemeteryman
|
|
|
|
|
I agree. Here's a different perspective. When I was a child in the 1960's my father was a minister for the Assemblies Of God. Rio, Wisconsin, was one church he pastored among others. We lived in a parsonage across the street from the church, and we didn't have much. Church members who were farmers would give us food generously, We always had enough to eat and that was what mattered. There were 4 hungry mouths to feed.
Uprooting and moving on to different churches was the hardest part that I can remember.
Pastors and their families should have their needs met but the emphasis should be on the spiritual rather than material.
Pastors are people like everyone else but it's not a money-making career and shouldn't be viewed as one.
I hadn't thought about the Assemblies of God in a long time. A good church organization I guess. But in my life I have learned it's not about the church or the pastor it is about the individual.
I lost my father in 1989. He tragically ended his own life. He had slipped into alcoholism and lost his footing. He was 49 years old.
Things like that hurt the ones who are left behind more than anyone.
Any pastors reading this, make sure to keep your feet on solid ground. The eternal things are what matters, not the things you can see with your eyes and touch with your hands. Money won't get you into heaven last time I checked.
|
|
Posted 02/23/2009 10:21pm
Author: ricksworld
|
|
|
|
|
Ok everybody...
I posted this over three years ago and I have not posted a single reply.
But now am I...
I want to just make this very clear:
This blog is not here for people to slam pastors for their high, or low, salary wage.
This blog is not here for people to condemn pastors over their personal mis conceptions of what ministry really is.
This blog is not here for people to "pass messages to pastors".
Rather:
This blog is here for pastors to understand (that over three years ago) there was a very interesting turn of base-line and high-line salaries for a few different pastoral positions.
That explained:
Any further blog comments that are not about the content of the original blog... I am just going to delete. My right as the author of this blog entry.
Clear Enough.
Thank you,
John B. Abela
|
|
Posted 03/20/2009 03:38am
Author: abelajohnb
|
|
|
|
|
Log Into Chatroom 
)
