Author: revgenlink+
Posted Jul 15 2012 11:59:49am
|
|
Billy, Please accept this as a correction of the fairly common interpretation of Matthew 17:21 and Mark 9:29.
These passages are often mis-interpreted. That is why I believe I should and I want to point out that the scripture is not referring to the demon that was being cast out but instead to unbelief. What is being said is that this kind of unbelief can only be overcome through prayer and fasting. The disciples belief had to be strengthened through prayer and fasting in order to be able to cast out the demon in this particular situation. Please notice the context of the scripture as follows:
It is most clearly written in Matthew 17: 19-21 KJV
Matthew 17: 19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
21 Howbeit this kind (of unbelief) goeth not out but (can only be overcome) by prayer and fasting.
Mark 9:23-29 KJV
23 Jesus said unto him, If thou can believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.
26 And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead.
27 But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose.
28 And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out?
29 And he (Jesus) said unto them, This kind (of belief / faith) can come forth by nothing, but (only) by prayer and fasting.
This was pointed out to me by Andrew Wommack of the Gospel Truth Ministries. He is the one who has served in many ways as a mentor in the area of healing. He has a teaching and healing ministry that I highly recommend. He teaches with pureness in spirit and in truth. His interpretation I truly believe is accurate.
God bless you dear brother and friend. God bless the writing of this series.
Dorothy  |
|
Author: Billy Beard+
Posted Jul 15 2012 02:00:10pm
|
|
Dorothy, I would have to disagree with that assessment of what the text says. I realize that many respect the tv preachers and teachers, but again, the text itself will not agree.
There are not 'kinds' of unbelief found within scripture. Unbelief is just simply unbelief. If scripture names different kinds of unbelief then we can study the text involved, but I don't believe it will reveal any.
We do know that are different demons. This one was clearly driven out. I also don't believe prayer and fasting strengthens unbelief. They will bring down strongholds, and strengthen in the battle against the spiritual wickedness and powers in high places. The spiritual realm. What would overcome unbelief is just the opposite, belief, and trusting in God. But we also know that the effectual prayer of the righteous is strong, and especially those who are much more mature and obedient to God, through His Spirit.
Most would consider it apples and oranges. They could not cast the demon out, because of unbelief. The (of belief/faith) was added, it is not in the text. The greek for 'kind' is defined as 'kin' (abstr. or concr., lit. or fig, indiv. or coll.)--born, country (-man), diversity, generation, kind (-red), nation, offspring, stock.
I believe the text is referring to the kind of demon. That unbelief was the cause is brought out in the text clearly. As is how that they would be able to drive such out. Some are going to have a much bigger stronghold than others. Those exorcists referred to in Acts would bear this out, they had practiced already, but this one overpowered them.
I believe careful examination of the text and language would disagree with Wommack though, if this is what he teaches. Not a condemnation. Just that we always have to consider text, language, and the whole of scripture.
Hoping we can see what scripture will reveal about this. God bless sister. |
|
Author: revgenlink+
Posted Jul 15 2012 04:08:10pm
|
|
Billy,
Matthew 17:19-21 appears to be very clear. Jesus says straight out Because of your unbelief
Matthew 17: 19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.
Kinds of unbelief can include: doubt, uncertainty, poor teachings, weakened faith, believing a doctor above the words of God and so on.
A person can believe and also have unbelief at the same time. Doubt often comes in when it comes to healing and surely in situations where a demon is to be cast out. The whole situation was apparently unusual for the disciples and quite possibly doubt and uncertainty was allowed to creep in which hindered the flow of the power of God and made them unable to cast out the demon. Jesus is telling them that the faith, the belief, that is needed to overcome this problem can only come from the disciples spending time fasting and in prayer.
Demons are not cast out by fasting and prayer. We have to act. "Submit to God, RESIST the devil and he will flee." We are to PUT ON the full armor of God. A demon cannot possess the body of a believer, but a demon can influence and create a stronghold in our mind.
Demons can be cast out by disciples of Jesus Christ (born again believers) who follow the example of Jesus Christ and have the understanding that Jesus Christ has given us the authority (John 14) with the power source being the Holy Spirit and our joining this understanding with strong belief- strong faith. Healing IS often hindered and even blocked because of a person's problem with unbelief. It works to hinder/block the power of the Holy Spirit from manifesting in the person. Spending time in the presence of God, fasting and praying, is a very important way to rid oneself of unbelief and to bring greater strength to one's faith.
Billy, I was the one who added the words in quotation marks hoping to add more clarity. KJV is a little harder to understand, but more strict in its word usage than NIV, for example, NIV uses the phrase lack of faith instead of unbelief. The use of the word unbelief is clearer and of stricter usage.
I do not believe you can change my mind concerning the context of these scripture passages. I will leave it up to others who read this to consider the explanations.
God Bless dear brother.
With love through Christ,
Dorothy |
|
Author: Billy Beard+
Posted Jul 15 2012 06:28:47pm
|
|
Yes, we will just have to disagree with love through Christ. Fasting and praying are not to increase our belief, I do not see that in this text, or any other. Jesus Christ fasted and prayed, and He did not need to believe more than He already did. It consecrates us more, gives us deeper understanding and discernment of the spiritual, all things of God.
I have shared here how that I used to drink heavily. I was so broken that I fasted and prayed seven days about it. I already had belief that Jesus Christ could and would deliver me. It was not to increase my faith, but to bring the physical under control of the spiritual, to consecrate myself more fully to God, both physically and spiritually.
Fasting and praying would be a different topic however. Jesus had just came down from the Mount of Transfiguration, so we should certainly note that as being part of the text. If one is going to confront a demon, and the powers of spiritual wickedness in high places, I would very strongly recommend that they spend time fasting and in prayer. As Jesus said. Part of this series is to bring to light some things we should not take lightly at all. Too many, just as those in Acts, take the spiritual warfare we are in much too lightly, and only harm both themselves and those who would do as they do.
This is not listed as a spiritual gift, but confronting the powers of darkness are not for just any believer. Those not mature enough in their walk with Christ, and their consecration to God, nor their obedience, sanctification, going into direct spiritual warfare with satan and his demons are not wise. Look at our society. The biggest majority of professing believers are listening, watching, and participating in what can only be described as spiritual wickedness in high places. They are already in bondage enough, and need to be fasting and praying, consecrating themselves more fully to God. They serve with a divided mind and heart. The consequences of these type of people waging any kind of spiritual battle is devastating. Same sex clergy. Some of the concerts being performed in the name of Christ. Halloween parties. Issue after issue, being tolerated and compromised, even taught, of people who are not qualified to do anything as far as leading in the church, or ruling and excercising any authority over demons. Most are helping them, sadly.
God bless sister Dorothy. I will not be changing my view of the context either, for the reasons already given, the text will not support. When in doubt, a good study of the greek or hebrew, and how it is used, is always beneficial. Doubt is unbelief, and lack of faith, no disagreement there. The cure for these are found in our faith in God, through Jesus Christ. He cast the demon out. He told them 'howbeit', this 'kind', the one just cast out, 'come forth' (Mark), 'goeth not out' (Matthew) but by prayer and fasting. Unbelief is overcome by 'believing'. And it was what JESUS CHRIST did, that gave the fathers unbelief, belief, in that text, not prayer and fasting. And the disciples as well. Luke 9:43.
At times we wait, just as they did, for God to move. And we pray and fast, to consecrate ourselves, as God prepares in His own time. But not to bring belief, or faith. That is in God, alone. Love you through Christ, as a very dear sister, and friend. |
|
Author: doulos+
Posted Jul 19 2012 02:36:14am
|
|
This is always an interesting topic albeit one that can sometimes be polarising. I have been involved in ministering deliverance for a while now and I think we all need more teaching in this area as there are a lot of misconceived notions and unnecessary mumbo jumbo. I hope you don't mind if I am a bit lazy here and paste a link to an old blog in response to some of the notions you posed: Can a Christian be Demon Possessed? You may also want to see: God's Spiritual Realm, Angels and Demons
As for unbelief and casting out demons... I think it is clear enough in the Gospels that the disciples Jesus sent out (Mark 6:7) were already casting out demons and they clearly enjoyed success (Mark 6:13). When we come to Mark 9 where the disciples could not cast out the deaf and dumb spirit, I think they were asking specifically about why they failed with that particular spirit rather than a general why they couldn't cast out spirits at all.
I think it would be fair to look at the different Gospel accounts of the incident. The incident is recorded in Matthew, Mark and Luke. Luke is the briefest but all three agree that the disciples were asked to cast the spirit out of the boy but failed. All accounts also record Jesus admonishing the crowd present for being "a faithless and perverse generation...". It is clear Jesus was speaking generally to all present.
It gets interesting in Matthew 17:19-21 and Mark 9:28-29 where we have slight variations in Jesus' response to the disciple's question - "Why could we not cast it out" (Matthew 17:19, Mark 9:28 NKJV emphasis mine ). If we look first at the question, it is clear that the disciples were referring to the demon by "it". I don't see how anyone can think that the "it" can refer to "unbelief" or how we can read into it that the disciples were asking about how to cast out unbelief...
Jesus' response captured by the Gospels of Matthew and Mark differs slightly and I think the best interpretation here would be to consolidate both for our understanding. Matthew captures the additional "Because of your unbelief" (v.20) and both Matthew and Mark records that however, "this kind" does not come out except by "prayer and fasting". So, I think it might be a more balanced interpretation to first acknowledge that the disciples did suffer some deficit in belief. Yet, as we have already established above, this deficit in belief did not prevent them from casting out other demons earlier. So there must be something more and when we read on Jesus gives us the answer that this kind - of spirit - can only be cast out by prayer and fasting. Unbelief was not the main reason for their failure but a contributory factor and we can reasonably surmise that Jesus is teaching us that prayer and fasting is sometimes indispensable. Why prayer and fasting? Well, then we would have to extol the virtues of both and they are too numerous for here.
Well, I am just offering one interpretation for readers to consider objectively.
God bless... |
|
Author: Billy Beard+
Posted Jul 19 2012 04:36:05pm
|
|
Thanks for your comment doulos. Glad to see you on site again. When Jesus said 'howbeit', He was referring to the reason they could not cast that particular demon out, which was what they asked. Obviously some have a greater stronghold than others, and better preparation is needed to deal with such kind. The jewish exorcists in Acts also shows this, as they were overpowered with that demon. The acts that they performed as exorcists also show they had done this before, but that one overpowered them. Also, if one studies the particular greek used for "kind", in that text in Matthew 17:21, and the places the word is used, we can see that the word kind does not refer to 'unbelief', but rather kind of devil. If in doubt, a good study of the original word, and how the particular word or words are used as a whole in scripture, is best by far. Some words translated as english, may have different greek or hebrew words used, and yet only one word is used in the english translation, so an in-depth of the original language, as used as a whole in scripture, is always the best and most accurate method by far.
I will check out your blog. And will also include one on that particular question. We have to be careful to not add or subtract from what scripture will tell us about such topics. Many do. Some use king Saul, and others Judas, on the topic about can a christian be possessed. The anointing and spirit had left Saul, because of disobedience. Judas would be a lot more debatable, though Jesus knew he was a devil beforehand. We do know that when the disciples were sent out, and cast out devils and healed many, Judas was with them. Makes the topic more complicated. But he had already left the night Jesus spoke in depth with His disciples, the night of His arrest. Some things are for God to judge, through Jesus Christ. And an awful lot of the time people go beyond what God has revealed to us, in His word, and start adding and subtracting. Human nature can not be allowed in bible study, like it is in the gossip and pass the secret on games we play. We have to just use and study what is there, and not start the theories. Thanks a lot for your input. Hope to read some blogs from you soon. God Bless brother. |
|
Author: doulos+
Posted Jul 19 2012 08:54:23pm
|
|
Thanks Billiy, I always enjoy your well studied blogs and I look forward to more of what you have to say about this very interesting topic. We agree on the interpretation of "this kind" and I am with you about the need for better preparation for certain situations.
Regarding Judas and his participation in casting out demons... Well, I don't see casting out demons as an ability based on virtue or holiness but rather simply as an authority to do so. You will notice that the Greek word used when associated with the "power" to cast out demons is "Exousia". I know you will recognise this as meaning "authority". When Jesus sent them out, He gave all His disciples the authority to cast out demons and Judas received this same authority.
As Christians we do have the authority to cast out demons. When we believe we have this authority we can (Mark 16:17). The authority you and I have comes from Jesus. Put it this way - a good cop or a bad cop still has the badge that gives him the authority to police (until he loses it of course)... Judas was given a "badge" so to speak and this is despite himself. In any case, we all fall short and deceive ourselves if we think we have no sin (Romans 3:23; 1 John 1:8).
While ministers ought to be holy (for so many reasons), ministerial qualification isn't predicated upon the person's holiness but rather upon grace and Jesus alone. We can all help and love someone else no matter what our own spiritual condition is and I think that's the kind of judgement free love that Jesus wants us to extend to each other. It is religiosity that has messed that up for us ...I think there is a revelation there for all of us that if Judas gets a "badge" why not me? When we bring grace into the context it diminishes difficulty accepting that Judas, the would be betrayer, could perform miracles and cast out demons. We don't need to qualify Judas' ministry because Jesus did...
To come back to authority - we can also examine the notion against the sons of Sceva for contrast. Through further study as to why they didn't have the authority I think we will also learn more about our relationship with Jesus.
Anyway, this is my present understanding and what I rely on for ministry. I could be wrong. I am always learning and my views often evolve with new findings. There are people who really do need this kind of help and they should never be made a show of. I wish there aren't so many ministers that make it into a display of sorts...
God bless... |
|
Author: Billy Beard+
Posted Jul 20 2012 02:55:41am
|
|
Doulos thanks for your input. I agree with you on this comment. I work with a few who exhibit being vexed or possessed. It has a big stronghold in their lives. They so need the power of God, in and through Jesus Christ, in their life. As we all do. Be in prayer about that, in your private time with our awesome God. Yes, God Bless all in Christ. |
|
|
View Profile 
My Blogs 
My Blog Series 
My Blog Tags 
My Comments 
My Wall 
My Friends 
My RSS Feed
Creative Commons: Public Domain
