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Hey greybear,
First, I respect your rules.
Secondly, as a youth minister of nearly 10 years, I can say that 'family rules' play very little in the life of most kids -- yes, even in "Christian homes".
I have seen dozens and dozens of kids (preteen through teenagers) who everyone (including parents) thought were "upright kids" go down a path that we as adults might not want them going.
Let us not forget that the majority of "preacher kids" fall - and fall hard - because of "strict family rules".
While I was a youth minister, I ended up having the largest youth group of "home schooled kids" in Northern California. As you probably know, home school kids seem to congregate together (rather, parents force them to congregate together) so within a few years the youth group was rather large. As a youth minister I had to totally change my approach to ministry. Along the way I saw over 1/3rd of the kids fall away, many of them into sexual mistakes.
In one quarter, about four years ago, every single pastor in my region who had teen-age kids discovered their kids were having sex, and many of them ended up pregnant.
Proof enough that even in "good homes" strict rules are going to mean very little to kids who've grown up around strict rules. While a few of the girls did not dress perfectly as you explained, the large majority of those who ended up pregnent, dressed exactly as their parents demanded (and as I tried to instruct them as part of their spiritually authoritative structor).
Again, I respect the family rules. But I did want to share my own experience - not as a father, but as a spiritually authoritative part of youths lives - when it comes to these type of family rules.
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Posted 01/30/2006 05:58pm
Author: abelajohnb
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[bible]Ephesians 6:1-4[/bible]
John,
No disrespect to you as a youth leader, but it's not a youth leader's or some other teacher's job to train up my children to go in the way of the Lord.
I would like to know how many of those daughters had any kind of relationship with there fathers? How many of those fathers actually took the time to set down with them and explain what "the typical immature teen boy" wants from a girl? And here is one, how many of those fathers were foolish enough to allow their daughters to engage in "dating" where "minor" physical encounters were given permission and indeed lead to sexual activity.
We tell our daughters, "don't do the bad things hun", but then we send out 14 year old out with boys unchaperoned. Good grief what do we expect. They are of sin nature and left to Satan's influences they will fall right into the sensuality of today's world view. I don't care if the were Billy Grahm's kids.
Good grief even the afterschool specials promote preteen girl/boy relationship with physical involvement. Some might say "oh it was just a harmless little kiss at the end of the show". Not, now your little girl thinks if she finds some young man to be her hero, she should kiss him in admiration and "they live happily ever after". And what about the shows that deal with teens. Is it ok for you to endorse the idea that "real love" leads to sexual activity that is promoted on most of these shoes? No, then as a father what are you doing about it? Very likely not a dog gone thing.
The whole point here is that as a parent you have to build a relationship and it takes a huge amount of communication and mountains of time. If you're thinking you don't have that kind of time, then take what you get and accept that you didn't do your part. Most parents never had that type of relationship with there own parents and really don't have a clue as to how to go about building that relationship. I was one of those kids, but I refuse to follow in my parent steps. I'm adamite about the whole deal because I watched as 4 sisters and a brother became involved as early teens and it trashed multiple marriages and every one of their relationships. And continues to haunt them today.
For me, I'll keep the rules and I'm working everyday to improve the relationship with each of my children. I'm not a super dad, but I will stand before God accountable for what I have done or not done in their lives. I refuse to stand by and let the world give them the guidelines. That's my job and I'll depend on God for my direction.
What my children do with their instruction will be their choice. Even the best Christians have children who turn their backs on teaching, but I want to make sure I have done my part in training them up. I'm just a man, just a dad, but I take the job very seriously. Ans so does God.
In Christ,
GreyBear
Side Note: Not all homeschoolers are Christian. As a matter of fact, there is a growing section of America that recognizes the fall of public education and the poor grade of students it is producing. Homeschooling doesn't mean good families anymore. It just means they have abandoned the public system. Again I would add, Did the fathers of the Homeschoolers have any kind of relationship with their daughters? I'll add a short blog on why my family homeschools in the homeschool section.
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Posted 01/31/2006 05:43am
Author: greybear
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bullfrog,
You asked:
No, the "Power Dad" approach never work long term. I set her down or take her with me somewhere I'm going and I ease into a subject. Kind of like it was her idea to bring it up. Although there have been times I simply got to the point. I have covered with all my kids the fact that I am responsible to God for them, so when I start in they already know I'm going to follow God's lead/direction. I just drop it back in God's lap, that's who I answer to. If they don't like the guidelines they can take it up with Him. Do they always like what I have to say...Nope. But I am also they're provider and protector and I get a certain amount of respect for that. The rest I guess comes from that fact that they know I love them and want the best, as seen through God's eyes, for them. There is no secret formula for success, I already checked!
In Christ,
GreyBear
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Posted 01/31/2006 12:12pm
Author: greybear
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bullfrog,
Not judging you boss or his family, cuz I don't know them.
To many times parents begin to take serious what their kids will be like when they get to the mid to late teen years. With few exceptions, it's too late. At this point they really aren't taking in any new "life" info, they are just trying to decide what they want to keep and toss of what they already have and decide with it or without it who they are. At that point you do the best you can and take it to God.
I think that's where frustration can come into play for those who work with the teen groups, whether church related or not. I have a good christian friend who is a juvenile court Judge and he shared this thought with me just last week. We are serving together on the team for a men's spiritual renewal weekend called the "Great Banquet" and have served together on the teen version called the "Awakening".
"I tell them what is right and what is wrong and they do what they want and don't even here a word I say. But when I go to bed, I put down my head and am able to go to sleep because I've done what God and the law expects of me. One day they will mature and they'll remember the lesson, but they may have some serious consequences to deal with as well."
I have ministered to the youth of others and I could pour over a lesson and never see a change in the teens. I finally had to take the approach that I was trying to fix 15-18 years of someone elses programming or lack of it and I can't do that, only God can.
Here is a bit of a twist on the Proverbs verse:
Don't train up a child in the way he should go, And even when he is old he will not know it.
In Christ,
GreyBear
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Posted 02/01/2006 07:37am
Author: greybear
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Problem
What to do when they begin to grow and things don't quite fit they way they did when you first approved them. You know, the pants get small and the shirts too short.
Solution
Have her and mom sort through her closet and have them check with you on any things they feel may be questionable. Then have them bring you what they feel won't pass anymore. You take a quick count and immediately send them shopping to replace the clothes adequately. So far, "new" has prevailed over the idea of keeping those that don't "fit". My daughter is more than happy to add new items to her wardrobe in exchange for the "old"!
In Christ,
GreyBear
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Posted 04/07/2006 12:35pm
Author: greybear
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Thanks for the encouragement. I moved away from the area where I was a youth minister, so now, as you said, all I can do is pray for their hearts to be changed.
Thanks again.
John
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Posted 04/07/2006 07:24pm
Author: abelajohnb
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greybear,
I am a teenage girl (although I may not be normal). I'm very glad that you have rules like that for your daughter. A lot of times we need them. My parents' rules are a lot like your rules. I really don't think they are too strict (again, I'm not a very normal teenage girl). It really bugs me when girls dress immodestly. My parents' rules don't bug me because, if my parents didn't have any rules about how I dressed, I would still dress very modestly. I don't even go anywhere near the line between modest and immodest. I learned that rules are not that bad if you accept them and don't always complain and wish they weren't there. My life has been much happier because I learned to accept the rules that my school, parents, and other authorities have put over my life.
In Christ,
Liz
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Posted 04/08/2006 02:23pm
Author: elizabeth
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greybear,
I am very thankful for the stand you take. I am a single Christian guy in the military stationed in Hawaii, and I am constantly bombarded with sensual imagery. I find it difficult to control my eyes and therefore my thoughts when I can't leave my apartment without seeing girls of all ages dressed very immodestly. This is especially disheartening when it comes from women who claim to be Christians. If your daughter complains that there will be no boys after her if she dresses like that, tell her there are those of us who are looking for exactly that.
Neil
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Posted 08/24/2006 01:43pm
Author: neilallen
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I would have to say a I totally agree with that!
I'm a youth leader and I work with many girls who complain about the strict rules their Dad's put on them. Now, each parent has their own rules, I however encourage the girls to look past the rules and see the very heart of their dad. I for one had a rather awful dad who never really placed rules on my appearance, I really wish he did.
At 23, I dress..rather strangely for my age. I love long skirts and things that compliment me..not clothes that make me look rather trashy. And about a guy looking my way...I'd rather have a blind man like how I think, my heart, my soul, and my spunkiness..than how I dress.
A girl shoul value herself these days rather than walk around barely dressed. It's rather sad to know they place such value in how they look, when the truth is the inside..the heart, the soul of the woman that makes her beautiful.
These are just my thoughts..I'm glad you posted your rules.
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Posted 09/03/2006 09:00pm
Author: silvrloreena
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Well I am not a parent yet, but I am a daughter. Growing up my parents did have rules about what we were and weren't allowed to wear. Like no 2 piece swim suites, short shorts or skirt, low cut shirts, or t-shirts that had foul language or anything disrespectful. We were allowed to wear tank tops as long as the straps were thick and didn't show any undergarments(definitely no spaghetti straps).
Even though some of my school friends thought that these were strict rules, I had no problems with them at all and neither did my sisters(I still have one sister that lives at home). My parents are so proud of us that even today we are modest in what we wear and have no desire to dress trashy.
Most of the girls I went to school with, were more into what they looked like, so they wore the less modest outfits, the tons of make-up and anything else to get the attention of a guy. But what my parents taught us was more important than outward appearances. They told us that what is on the inside is more important and if a guy can't see that then they aren't worth our time and I agree with them.
I never thought I was very pretty,(I had a low self esteem, which is better now but is still needs some work)but my parents always told me I was beautiful, not just on the outside, but on the inside as well. It took me a while to realize this, but I do now. I am married to a wonderful Christian man who loves me for me. He doesn't care if I am the most beautiful person in the world or the ugliest. (although if he did tell me I was ugly I might cry lol) Of course he does think I am beautiful, but he also loves what is on the inside. My love for the Lord most of all and my sweet compassionate heart (his words). To me that is better than all the outward beauty in the world.
I know it is hard for young women like ages 11-23 to see this, but once they do, they will appreciate everything their parents have taught them. I know I do.
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Posted 09/09/2006 09:47pm
Author: liljojo
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GB,
I totally agree!!!! As you very well know these were MY rules as a young girl growing up!! And I can say now as an adult, they did'nt kill me one bit!!!!!
BUT NOT having such strickness in dress, just could have!!!!!
Young girls today just do not give a thought to the message they send to the public by their outward appearance!!! Then so many wonder why boys/people in general look at them and judge their reputation on what they see!!!!!!!
Even with only having a son, my rules reflect those of my childhood!!!!
NO pants hanging below your waist!! I do NOT want to see the tops of your boxers/whatever sticking out of your pants!! NO vulgar images on shirts, EX... .
Respect ME ,no half dressed girls on shirts!!!!
And NO piercings, NO tatoos!!!!!!!!!!!!! (well at 18 he has a cross on his shoulder!!) Done without my knowing!! WITH his Father!! BUT as long as he lives with ME there will be NO MORE!!
So YES! EVEN SON's NEED rules for proper dress!!!!!!!!!
AND as a mother I have taught my son what a "good" girl should be dressing like also!! I want him to make good choices in that area!!!! MORE, does not mean better!!
THANKS for sharing GB!!!
Boy does that bring back memories!!!!!! LOL!!
His humble servant,
Songbird!
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Posted 04/13/2007 05:43am
Author: songbird
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Rules are nothing more than Rules if you don't have the relationship -it's the relationship that makes the rules workable.
Great Blog
God Bless
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Posted 04/13/2007 09:17am
Author: poodlelady
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GB, you are one awesome dad. I wish my dad had as much sense. My dad had a bad  habit and couldn't see me for the animosity he had toward my mother. Nor could he appreciate me for the individual that I am. He kept trying to mold me and shape me into the son he never had. Thank God for Jesus! Through Him, I have learned about my heavenly father, that loves me, honors me and protects me.
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Posted 05/26/2007 06:15pm
Author: blackrose65
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I am glad for parents like you. Some may think that you are too harsh, however I say that many of them are too lenient. At least it is obvious to us, and your daughter that you care(although she may not always admit it or like it).
Click here to visit WithoutDoubt.net for for an edgy new Christian clothing line!! Check it out!
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Posted 07/28/2007 12:03am
Author: withoutdoubt
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GB -
Your post brought back memories for me as well. My dad had strict rules for me too. No shorts (yes, NO shorts) once I hit a certain age, no swimming in a pool with boys (that was a real HARD one for me) and of course, only one-piece swimsuits, as well as most of the other same rules you have with your daughter. I give you KUDOS for sticking to your guns. We need more fathers like you today. It seems that "anything goes" in today's society and it's very disheartening. There may be a day your daughter isn't so understanding of your rules, but she knows the reason why, and that's HUGE. Even through those years (if you have them) she'll be thankful later on (as I am now) that you cared enough to be so strict with her.
You're a great dad, Greybear!! 
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Posted 07/28/2007 04:58am
Author: dgerbino
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I also have a teenage daughter. From day one she knew what we expected and we explained it to her. We also chose a Catholic school that promotes modesty in dress. SO from all areas she is getting the same message. We've never encountered any problems, because this has always been the norm in our home and in her school. I was joking with my daughter the other day that if she ever did bring home clothes that were inappropriate, they'd be burned in the fire. We laughed about it, but she knows that nothing will come in this house that is inappropriate. I think sometimes parents forget that they are the parents. Can there be compromise? Sure, as long as you aren't completely selling out your beliefs. We promote modesty because we want our daughter to know that she is a child of God. She is not some piece of meat to be discarded. She understands just how valuable a person she is and has the unconditional love of her father. Father's play a SIGNIFICANT role in the life of their daughter's. Teaching modesty is a must, however the love from her father is equally if not even MORE important to promoting self worth. In general girls will not feel the need to go out and sell themselves by hiking up their skirt if they understand why they should dress modestly and have that love and unconditional support from their father.
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Posted 08/22/2007 05:57am
Author: catholicchristian
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Wow, now here is a subject I really had not thought about. (well my oldest girl is only 13) But a subject that certainly should be included here as we look at Modesty in every step of living for Christ.
Modesty on Your Wedding Day!
Here is a little snippet from that page:
Blessings,
GreyBear
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Posted 09/14/2007 12:10pm
Author: greybear
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Fabulous discussion, and I like the rules so much I might even print them out! And dressing modestly does not mean you cant be fashionable, either. It takes a little bit of extra work, but often we can tailor the latest fashion into a modest version. (There are some trends we have flat out said no to, like the words Juicy and Sexy printed on their bottoms!) We've been raising the kids to dislike things like "Bratz" and other sexy dolls, and eve we don't buy Barbie trashy clothes, either. At this point the kids really take pride in dressing modestly, and we are encouraging their friends too, as well!
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Posted 10/14/2007 04:54pm
Author: mochabkjoe
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I'm totally with poodlelady on this one:
"Rules are nothing more than Rules if you don't have the relationship -it's the relationship that makes the rules workable.
Great Blog
God Bless"
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Posted 11/02/2007 12:15am
Author: beloveddaughterofgod
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As an independent teen... I wear what I can afford. If I wasn't broke I'd wear the same worn out jeans I have on right now. Other than the fact they are tired... they are in your guidelines. Modesty and self-respect are very attractive traits in a young girl... It's an almost unheard of practice in today's world. In time I'm sure she will appreciate the love and attention she is getting from her "old man". *poke* ;-)
In love,
tornconflicts
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Posted 11/30/2007 04:22pm
Author: tornconflicts
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Hi Greybear
I definitely support the way you're raising your daughter. As a primary school teacher I'm sometimes shocked by what some of my seven and eight year old students wear to school. Examples include extremely short miniskirts on girls, a seven-year-old girl whose t-shirt sports the message that she 'Saw it. Wanted it. Had a fit. Got it.' and a boy who recently turned up with new shoes patterned with skull-and-crossbones and skeletal fingers making a vulgar gesture. Children are very impressionable and lack the judgement which comes with maturity. Without parental guidance they will chose clothing that they think is 'cool', 'cute', or 'pretty' without stopping to think about the underlying values which their choices uphold.
I also loved your policy of replacing clothing that had become inappropriate with wear by allowing your daughter to trade them in for new clothes - I can definitely see how that would become a major incentive to get rid of the old.
In light of the early comment by Abelajohnb regarding modestly-dressed teenage girls from Christian homes who nevertheless end up becomming sexually active, I would like to contribute the following suggestion (you may have already done this): have your wife or another Christian woman whom your daughter respects talk to her about the physical desires SHE will experience as she matures. When I was a teenager (growing up in a secular home) it was carefully explained to me many times that boys will want 'certain things' and it was okay to say no. What was NOT explained was that I would ALSO want 'certain things'. Your daughter needs to know that she will experience these desires too - the important thing is not to give in to them! She needs to know that these feelings aren't automatically sinful, but are intended to form part of the God-ordained relationship between a husband and a wife (Gen. 2:24). The sin lies in giving in to them when you're not married.
She also needs to know - and I know this from personal experience - that she need never fight temptation alone: the Holy Spirit will always be alongside her, ready to uphold her in purity and virtue (and, of course, she should be dating a godly young man who is as aware as she is of what the standards are). It's easy to say that girls (and boys) shouldn't be putting themselves in a position where things have the potential to 'get out of hand', but Abelajohnb's comment reminds us that the reality is that these situations DO arise, and that all too often our girls aren't ready to deal with them when they do.
My apologies if the above sounds vulgar or inappropriate - especially as this is your baby girl I'm talking about - but I feel strongly that talking to young (that is, early teens) girls about the desires they will experience is the only way to prepare them to resist them. After all, we're fighting an enemy who is always looking to catch us unawares.
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Posted 06/28/2008 09:57pm
Author: tealight
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Wow, thanks those are really useful. What do you think about a girl wearing instead of a swimsuit a tankini top and long shorts (eg. board shorts), would you also find that appropriate?
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Posted 07/11/2008 05:31am
Author: xshmalx
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Alright, this is in no way an attack of any sort, just simply stating a fact from my opinion. I am a 16-year-old teen aged girl, and my dad is similar to you but not as strict. (my collarbone can show) But I was just interested in something you said. "How many of those fathers actually took the time to set down with them and explain what "the typical immature teen boy" wants from a girl?"
My dad awkwardly made sure I knew this fact, and I (similarly to your daughter) had an "I know" with an eye roll attitude. This never ever sunk in until I became close (though speech alone) with a boy online. Even then I could have had the choice to not please God with my actions , i did however and discontinued any communication with this boy.
Now I fully understand what my dad meant when he told me that, but you're daughter might not. I don't think you drilling it into her head will do it either. That's something she'll just really have to figure out on her own. You should just talk to her about what she will do when the situation does arise, and pray she'll make the right decision
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Posted 07/14/2008 08:13pm
Author: laurel
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I am 18 years old, and my mom always made sure I dressed classy and not trashy. The only time I remember disagreeing with her is when I wanted to buy a halter top maybe 4 years ago, and she said it was too revealing, but she sat me down to explain why she didn't want me to wear it. But now I dress modest and classy because I like it, it's my style.
But I can see why your daughter might roll her eyes when you explain things to her. She may fully well understand you and her both don't want her to dress a certain way because of the way other people perceive her, but maybe she thinks the way you want her to dress makes her look like a nun, while she may want something more trendy. As a father, and a guy (no offense), her mother might be able to explain how she can dress dress trendy and also modest. You don't have to go to a modest store like people linked above, I shop popular stores, but my style is very modest I take the time to find modest clothing that fits right.
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Posted 07/25/2008 12:00pm
Author: kelss
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Boundaries - not just about clothing, but every aspect of a child's growing years. Greybear, you mentioned in this blog that "she was just looking for the line." That reminded me of a story I heard from a youth pastor in a church I used to attend. It went something like this:
A young boy and his sister were in a dark place...a physically dark place which had no light whatsoever. They could not even see their hands in front of their faces. They did not know how they got there, really. They stumbled through a door and it closed behind them. They could not open the door from inside. They were very afraid. They spoke to each other, and began to carefully move around.
"Slowly," the boy said, "there may be a hole or something to trip over. We may even fall over an edge somewhere."
Gradually they slipped their feet along the floor, trying to feel out the area. Their hands were outstretched to feel anything they may run into.
"We may be able to go anywhere we want." The girl said. "What if there is no limit?"
"Cool," said the boy. "I just hope there is some light to see out there somewhere."
They kept moving along searching, partly excited about the adventure and partly very scared. They could get into all sorts of trouble, and had mixed feelings about that, as children do. There is an excitement about doing something that is a little outside the boundaries, but it is mixed with fear.
Eventually, one of them found a wall. By talking, they came together and slowly moved around the wall to see if there was a door or any kind of opening. They eventually moved all the way around the room to the door they came in, though they were not sure, so they went around again, counting the turns they made at the corners and the steps between the corners. They determined that they knew the boundaries of the room.
Suddenly, they felt safer. There was nothing in the room to hurt them, and no outlet to get lost. It was a great relief for them, even though they didn't realize why, exactly.
Finally their father came in. He turned on a light switch, which was too high for them to feel before, and told them they could play in that room all they wanted.
When we put boundaries there for our kids, they feel more secure. This is born out in almost every piece of literature written by child psychologists. A more secure child usually grows up to be a more well adjusted adult, who knows where to put their OWN boundaries in life.
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Posted 11/07/2008 03:19am
Author: philruby
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wow! this has started some great discussion.
i just turned 18 and never really had any codes of dress.
i just kind of had my own standards, but my standards are pretty modest.
and being a bigger build, i tend to cover up a bit more. 
its been an interesting read thats for sure.
alot of my friends believe the whole "if you've got it, flaunt it" thing.
and few believe that our dress code is kind of the aussie way.
hmmmm. this one has certainly got me thinking.
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Posted 11/16/2008 06:50pm
Author: shanijane
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dunno if its just me or what.
But i dress how i feel.
My attire makes somewhat of a stand for who i am.
i find it easy to express myself with my choice in fashion
hmmmm.
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Posted 11/16/2008 10:46pm
Author: shanijane
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Shanijane, you're not alone.
I tend to avoid t-shirts with writing on them, as I don't like my clothing to (literally) say something about me that my mouth never would. However, I found one t-shirt with writing that I just love, and I wear it precisely because its message is one I agree with.
It's a long blue t-shirt with a round neck - nice and modest, and blue is my favourite colour - with the words 'War is expensice; peace is priceless' printed on it in large letters. For those of you in New Zealand, I bought this from The Warehouse (of all places).
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Posted 11/28/2008 10:38pm
Author: tealight
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http://www.c28.com
C28 is a Christian retail store chain, offering an alternative to the mainstream mall stores.
The Christian clothing, music, jewelry and accessories reflect a clean and positive Christian lifestyle.
C28 stands for Colossians 2:8, Not Of This World (NOTW), and all about Jesus!
Thought I would add this in that CB seems to like them as well.
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Posted 10/13/2009 11:41am
Author: greybear
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Wow!!! This was alot of fun to read! GB I have a lot of respect for you! I think it's awesome you have those rules. Growing up, I went to a private school were there was a dress code. It was interesting because you could easily spot the people who were being forced to dress a certain way and those who knew why. Being a guy, I didn't have to worry about my dress length! but I did have to watch myself how I looked at girls. I think it's just as important for fathers/ or older guys to teach younger guys about looking at girls. I was taught to always look at the face and nothing below the shoulders. Even though it's not easy ( since I live in Fl now) it's become a habit and has helped me out. It's not entirely up to females. Guys have a responsibilty as well.
But I also agree Shanijane, expressing ones self through fashion isn't a bad thing either.
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Posted 10/30/2009 12:49pm
Author: gqyankee
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Log Into Chatroom 
She SOOO has him wrapped around her little finger! We had 3 boys, and the week my baby was 18 graduating High School we received custody of an already much loved 18 month old niece.
She is now as much a daughter to us as if i gave birth to her...my husband and my sons spoil her so! Pray for her please!
