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The biggest problem here is that even though the Truth is not relative, it cannot be proven by facts...That's why Faith is required.
To answer your last question,
I am not 100% sure about much anymore, but I know that I need God and I can't live a day without Him and He is always there.
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Posted 07/13/2009 09:36pm
Author: kmb01
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Dear brother,
In my ministry, I have learnt that Christians cannot afford to misunderstand the concept of truth. In the matters of God and the events in this world, there is just one Truth. This truth can be empirical (i.e. fact based, quantifiable, observable, testable, tangible) and/or spiritual. Spiritual Truth can only be discerned by faith and through the Spirit. In this sense, the post modern world's notion of relative truth is a misnomer. But does this mean that the Christian can offhandedly disdain a person's perception of truth? As a professor of communications and a Christian, I think not. That would be lacking grace and mercy and that would also cause us to be in effective in our witness. The problem we have today is that we have adopted an attitude that rejects the reality that absolute Truth and relative truth are both very real, very existent and very co-existent. Here is what I mean:
When a person believes in his/her heart and mind that there is no God. To that person, it is true. He/she is wrong because there is! Nevertheless the Christian must be sensitive to the fact that to THAT person it is true. That is, in his/her mind and through his/her worldview it is part of who he or she is. As we witness, we need to be sensitive to this and address it accordingly with grace and mercy. When I was very young, a very wise professor who knew that I had chosen to be an educator gave me this advice, "Remember the the ultimate violence we can inflict on someone else is the violence of the mind. What you teach and transmit to your student may be true and good but regardless, you must also know that what you are doing is tearing down the foundational belief and values of your students." For this reason, I always try very hard to teach and witness with the same grace, humility and gentleness of Christ.
Please do not mistake me, I am not advocating the accepting of the perceived truth of others and the eventual dilution of absolute truth. I am saying that in our zeal for God's Truth let us not become a callous people.
Here is an example from one of the classes I teach. Let us say that a man, in sincere friendliness and appreciation compliments s female employee on her dress and new hair do The female employee perceives this as an inappropriate advance and feels violated. In this case, the TRUTH is that the man did not intend or even do anything inappropriate, but it is also true that the young woman perceived offense and feel violated. If as a mediator, we disregard the woman's hurt, then while we would have truth on our side, our action would be flawed. I then transpose this to ask about the Christian response in conveying the ultimate Truth which is God's Truth to others, would our witness be 1. effective and 2. graceful and merciful? From this example, I urge my brothers and sisters in Christ to never buy into relative truth and surrender God's Truth and become ashamed of the Word but as we convey His truth to be aware of the dynamics of the values, beliefs, and perception of the one to whom you witness.
In love and humility,
Arisen
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Posted 07/13/2009 11:19pm
Author: arisensleeper
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arisen and kmb01,
Thank you both for your comments. I agree that depending on the question and circumstances we, as Christians, need to be sensitive to those who are seeking who God is and what Christ has done. We also need to be sensitve to the needs of that person as well. These very actions may lead them to a relationship with Jesus Christ. Many times, this is how the Holy Spirit chooses to do His work.
In relation to truth, can it be relative? It all depends on the specific case at hand. IF you are talking about people's emotions and experiences, then yes, truth may be relative. I always tell me sons, there are 3 sides to every story, yours, mine and the truth. We as human beings can skew the perception of what is being conveyed, so from the human perspective truth can at times be relative. However, when we discuss the issue of God existence, who Christ is, what Christ has done, many have told me that is relative.
Please do not misunderstand the following statement... We cannot leave any room for the Truth that is discussed in the Word of God. This does not include those items that may be debated (End times, is drinking alcohol allowed... )things like this. The truth we are discussing here is the fact that God is in fact Almighty in all ways, in all circumstances and knows all things regardless of how we may perceive it. For someone to say, "There is no God and that's what I believe, therefore it is truth" is a misconception. An example of this is the wind. If someone were to say, "There is no wind and that's what I believe, therefore it is truth", no matter what they may believe, the evidence of the wind still exists. This person would see that leaves would move during the fall, that rain moves different directions during a storm, even the trees swaying is evidence that the wind exists. So it is with God.
The Bible teaches, "Anyone who says, there is no God is a fool". Why? Because even in the very existence of nature, the proof of God is displayed. Even science, no matter what the theory (string theory, muliti-dimensional theory) cannot explain how DNA is so complicated and what does every DNA strain do. They are trying to figure it out, but only the Creator will know absolutely. Until then it is our best guess.
Regarding faith, there are times where we need to have faith in order to accept what God is doing in the world and our lives. Remember, "It is by faith you have been saved, not by works so that no man can boast." Faith does not negate truth. Faith and truth go hand in hand. If we do not have faith, then we will not discover truth. If we discover truth, then we need faith to believe the truth.
As always, being sensitive to others and what they believe is primary. It may be the very way God is calling them. But remember, that if they don't want to believe the truth, as described in God's Word, it is still their decision. We must stand firmly in Truth and when questions come, answer them as we know the truth.
Thanks again to both of you for your comments. May God bless you.
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Posted 07/14/2009 02:34pm
Author: joeyleone
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There is one truth concept that I am sure of. But 5yrs ago I would have told someone if they came and told me other wise that they were dead wrong. And that is the truth of the Father's word. I will boldly say and am probllay right that all christians state that the whole bible if truth, without error and mixture. But my question to them is, Do they really believe that? For if they do then why do they only obey half of it and say that the other half is not for them.
The truth that I am sure of is that the Fathers commandments ( all 613 of them) are still valid for believers today. Now the sacrifical order is not because there is no temple, alter, nor priesthood. But that will be restablished in the Milillinum. Ez 40-48. And not ALL of the commandments pertain to one indivual. there are certian things that are for the men that the women are not required of, and some things that are for the priest, the kings, high priest, and levities. So not one indiviual has to keep ALL 613 of them. Only what applies to them. The 613 laws are for the NATION of Israel, meaning the ones that are in the covenant of Yahweh, so it also does apply to the grafted in ones of the church too. There are though some that do apply to ALL believers. such as, Food laws, Sabbath, Feast days, e.c.t.
It is just like the law of the land. there are laws that apply to indiviuals but not to all of the people of what ever country they are in.
I read a scripture that really open my eyes to the fact that the law has not been done away with as taught by the church. and that is in Deut. 13. Tha Father HIMSELF says that if anyone tries to lead us from HIS commandments (Laws) that were are not to follow after them, they are a false; teacher, prophet, pastor,e.c.t.
If more people would read what is contained IN the law they would see that there is nothing in there that would put anyone in bondage if they were obeying them. They only way that they would do that is if one leaves the Messiah and thinks that their salvation is based on the keeping of the law and not faith in the Messiah. The law dont save, it only leads a person into a holy life style THROUGH the blood and grace of Yahshua the Messiah.
Reuben
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Posted 08/27/2009 09:10am
Author: reuben38
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Reuben,
Thank you for all that you said. A good friend of mine studied in Yeshiva and is a Gentile believer in Messiah (this fact alone was acknowledgement of what God had in store for him).
My friend has always told me that the requirements of the Law are still in effect. However, I asked him what is the purpose of the Law. One purpose of the Law was to point Isreal to Christ, so that when He came to earth, they would recognize him. The second purpose of the Law was to set apart Isreal from their surrounding neighbors. It was to signify that Isreal is set apart for God's purposes on earth.
Regarding keeping the Law. It was a teacher of the law that asked Christ about salvation. Christ stated to keep the law. The teacher then stated that he had done everything the Law commanded. Then Christ responded for him to give everything he had to the poor, but the man could not. Then again in Acts 10 Peter has the following happen to him - Acts 10:9-13 "About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat."
Peter refused to eat as the Law forbid him to eat unclean animals. Yet God then stated not to call unclean that which He made clean. Is this simply a metaphor or something else. Paul back this up when he was asked about people eating animals who have been sacrificed to idols. In 1 Corinthian 8 Paul responds to this by saying - "But not everyone knows this. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat such food they think of it as having been sacrificed to an idol, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do. " Paul then continues to explain how we should also be aware about weaker brothers in Christ as to not make this a stumbling block.
The point here is if we are to keep all 613 Laws, even though we already have the Messiah through His work on the cross. Then what benefit is it to keep all those laws. Are we free to keep all the Laws? Sure, but I don't think the Law is the end all of obedience and disobedience. Remember even Messiah stated that it is out of a man's heart that he is or is not condemned. If Messiah dwells within us, then we are clean regardless of what we eat. In any case, thank you for all your comments. I hope this didn't offend you in any way. It isn't meant for that. Thanks again.
Joey
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Posted 08/27/2009 09:58am
Author: joeyleone
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Joey,
What law are you talking about when you say that it was for leading Israel to the Messiah? For did you know that there were two sets of laws given? And we see the same govermental set up in the world today. The first set of commandments were given to lead Israel as a nation that is controled properly. Meaning that there are commands that explain how one should treat their neighbour, and about not murdering, or cheating one by moving their land marks ,ect. And we have that same principle today. And if Israel had obeyed them there would have not been a need for the second set of laws to be given. But because the Father knew that they would not, (because they could have) He gave them laws that required payment for their disobedience. And That is also relevant today. Look at the judical laws, (though they are corrupt).
Now the law that pointed them to the Messiah was the laws concerning the Feast days. I cant go into detail on them but you should study them out. Those were the ones that pointed to the Messiah. But the others did also, because it was by obedience to them would one be made righteous and the Messiah proved that to them. And yes they can be kept and obeyed. It is not hard to do. Mat 11:29 But might I add we are in the FLESH and that is what causes us to disobey and thus our need for grace for forgiveness and to help us keep them.
As for the Peter vision. Many quote that scripture to prove to others that we CAN eat what ever we want. But does it really say that? Read that passage again. Acts 10:9-29. But pay close attention to vs 28 for Peter will give you the interputation of the vision. It wasnt about eating food but about a Jew calling anyone who wasnt a Jew common or unclean. For if it was about food then the Father would be breaking His own commandment concerning unclean food.
You said
The point here is if we are to keep all 613 Laws, even though we already have the Messiah through His work on the cross. Then what benefit is it to keep all those laws.
The benifit of keeping them is we will be blessed if we do. Deut.11:26-28 And it also is the obedience that the Father wants from us Jer. 7:23.
And you are right the law is NOT the end of obedience, it is our Faith in the work of the Messiah. But neither does that prove the law was ended. It is Faith & obedience that works righteousness in a believer. James 2
And no you did not offend me at all. It is good if we can discuss scripture without argueing.
Reuben
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Posted 08/27/2009 11:00am
Author: reuben38
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Jack,
No problem. When we speak about 'relative truth' and 'absolute truth', we are speaking of terms used today to explain why people may believe what they believe. Relative truth states that truth to one person is not true to another, while absolute truth states, that no matter what people may think it is true. This is the original intent of this subject.
Regarding the Law or items discussed in Scripture, we need to allow Scripture to reveal itself through the Spirit of God. An example of this is that there are teachers out there who believe faith alone is a means by becoming wealthy and healthy. Although faith is essential in us pleasing God, it does not mean that we are going to be healthy and wealthy. We live in a fallen world and are subject to disease, poverty and death. Sometimes by our will, sometimes by circumstances we cannot control.
Can we discuss and debate? Absolutely. In fact it is encouraged in Proverbs - "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another." We must understand that there are subjects which are absolutely true, no matter what we think. So let's redefine what is meant here:
- Absolute truth: A subject which is defined by proven facts and cannot be argued because the facts do not allow.
- Relative truth: A subject which may be defined by facts but has not been completely proven. It can be debated and discussed based on others thoughts and opinions.
So to try and make the answer simple, relative truth does not exist. Relative truth is theory based on some fact and some opinions. This is the basis for evolution. Absolute truth is proven and is the only truth that exists. This is the basis of Christ's life, death and resurrection. Christ's life, death and resurrection has not only been proven by Scripture, but by the historians of His day.
My response to Reuben is based on what I've studied in Scripture. This does not solidify the basis of relative truth, but of opinion. If ideas are diametrically opposed, then one may be true and the other may not be. This then is a theory and not truth. I hope this clarifies some things. Sorry if I confused anyone.
Joey
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Posted 08/27/2009 11:07am
Author: joeyleone
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