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I dislike arguing with a pastor... and if you're on THIS SITE, then you're proclaiming that Jesus is Lord, and if that is truly the case for you then... all is forgiven hon. all is forgiven.. God isn't mad at you, He's madly In love with you!
and If I were you,... I'd ask him to show you in scripture where God is mad at those who are truly repentant!
Mr. Obama professes to be a Christian, until proven otherwise. And it is our duty as Christians to pray for him no matter what.
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Posted 06/25/2009 12:34pm
Author: blackrose65
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Why would you not argue with a Pastor? I actually showed him what I wrote and he said that you were wrong. He said your heart was in the right place but that God has to be truly angry with me in accordance with scripture:
"There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers."
-Proverbs 6:16-19
I meet the criteria for a least most of these and seeing as how I was an Atheist and turned my nose from God, I deserve whatever punishment he seeketh to bequeath on me.
Pastor Craig is a good guy though. Me and him and his Wife are going outta town next week to a Seminar. I sure hope you are right though. I hope in any case that God ends up loving me... I'm gonna try my best to be the best Christian I can be.
Blessings
-Johnny
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Posted 06/25/2009 03:25pm
Author: johnnyhawk
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why not argue with a pastor? to respect the office. and while you're being sincere.. check out 1John 1:9
Romans 5:16-17
Romans8:1
have a blessed evening
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Posted 06/25/2009 09:17pm
Author: blackrose65
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No action or work, we do can help us obtain salvation. Ephesians 2:8,9 : For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Accept the gift of God with a "Thank You".
Many Christans even after they have been given the gift of salvation, feel obliged to try to work their way to God. We need to understand that our salvation and faith are gifts and our response should be gratitude, praise and joy.
We become Christians through God's unmerited grace not as the result of any effort on our part. However, out of gratitude for this free gift, we will seek to help and serve others with kindness,love and gentleness, and not merely to please ourselves for we are not saved merely for our own good, but to serve Christ and build up the church.
I John 1:9 : If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Romans 5:1,2: Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: by whom we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
ptl2008
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Posted 06/26/2009 05:44am
Author: ptl2008
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Wait... huh? If we become Christians through God's unmerited grace not as the result of any effort on our part. and then out of gratitude for this free gift we seek to help and serve others with kindness,love and gentleness, then can I still go to heaven if I decide not to be a good person?
I guess what I mean is if God is already bestowing the free gift, do I not take it and run? That seems to easy, however there would seem to be no incentive for me to do otherwise because I already got the free gift. Why put any extra effort into it?
I prefer the other way in which I strive to be a better disciple and then I EARN entrance into his temple of awesome LOL!!! And this is in fact what Pastor Craig has told me to do.
But wait, do I argue or correct the Pastor if I think he's wrong? What if Pastor Craig is right and God gets mad at me for arguing with the "office". What happens if I don't argue and the Pastor is wrong? What happens if God gets mad at me for arguing regardless if Pastor Craig is right or wrong simply because he hold an office.
Oh man I am so confused right now. My path to Jesus certainly has been fraught with anxiety, but I will strive forward to redemption. IT certainly makes more sense than those atheists I was hanging out with. Thank you for making this an easy transition guys.
Thank you for your kind words and support my fellows. Blessed be to you guys and praise Jesus and my new friend Pastor Craig. I'm sure I might be missing something. Man you guys are smart!
Blessings
-Johnny
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Posted 06/26/2009 06:14am
Author: johnnyhawk
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Johnny,
As a Pastor myself, I would say clearly that your Pastor is absolutely wrong.
Galatians 3:3-4
Galatians 5:1
Galatians 5:4
Galatians 5:13-15
Romans 3:19-20
Romans 3:23-24
Romans 5:1-2
Romans 5:20-21
Romans 7:22-25
Romans 9:30-33
This is just a sample of what Scripture has to say on the matter. If you are a Christian, you are dead to sin and alive to God. God is not angry with you and you do not have to earn anything. If you try to earn your righteousness you discredit the cross of Christ and "fall from grace." There is no boasting in Christ, only a life of thankfulness for his mercy. Grace does not lead a person to sin more...rather by grace we overcome sin. That is why it is written, "Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of Godâs mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to Godâ”this is your spiritual»a» act of worship. 2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what Godâs will isâ”his good, pleasing and perfect will" (Romans 12:1-2).
The only concern we should have as Christians is losing hold of our faith. But if we have our confidence in Christ, there is no fear of God, but only a hopeful longing for Christ's return.
"For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship.»g» And by him we cry, âAbba,»» Father.â 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are Godâs children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirsâ”heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory" Romans 8:15-17.
Revelation 22:17
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Posted 06/26/2009 12:58pm
Author: mathetes
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Wait a minute Pastor... So the ONLY thing I have to do is BELIEVE and have FAITH God exists and doing good is just this nice little side dish I can take part in?
Well clearly you and Pastor Craig need to talk because what makes you right over him? I just want to love and know God and not get caught in the middle of some clearly confused ideas of Christian dogma. If you guys can't agree, and God isn't gonna step in the middle then what the heck are WE supposed to do? You guys are on the same team with clearly different game plans that apparently the Big Coach won't do anything about.
Now I'm even more confused than I was before... .oh man... .so now I've got one Pastor telling me the other is wrong and they are both using the same reference material...
I don't want to do good FOR God, I want to do Good for myself... Only after did I find out God is angry with me did I want to get in his good graces otherwise why do good? So I can go to hell?
Oh well... Thanks for the info anyways..
Blessings
-Johnny
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Posted 06/26/2009 05:24pm
Author: johnnyhawk
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calm down Johny... patstor Mathetes is right... Your pastor has a point about the things God hates.. this is true. However, as mathetes has pointed out... and salvation is a free gift! and if you accepted Jesus, you accepted salvation... and you do good because you want to please God... but... it's not a points thing. I want to please God because I love Him. Not because I am afraid of going to hell. true Christianity is about relationship with God not just eternal fire insurance! Cogitate on that for a minute... Jesus died because He loves you and wants to spend eternity with you!
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Posted 06/26/2009 06:39pm
Author: blackrose65
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Hi Johnny,
You have received some very good and true advise here. God does hate these sinful things because they hurt us and because He loves us. If you see something that hurts someone you love, don't you hate that "something"?
I'd like to share something that I have tried; I know it works. The next time you and God have a talk ask Him to make you thankful, to make you see how much He loves you and to make you totally grateful for all He has done for you. When I pray a prayer that asks God for that I end up so very grateful for who He is and so very happy. It also makes you WANT to do things that you are suppose to do anyway.
Here is something to think about along the line of "doing right":
"Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man." Ecclesiastes 12:13
Someone might quote this verse and say, "See, you HAVE to do what He says, it's just what you have to do if you are a Christian!" But there is more to this than meets the eye at first. Jesus Himself said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15 But the thing is that even if we are successful at "keeping" His commandments on our own we really are not KEEPING His commandments. No matter how hard we try on our own we will NEVER keep God's commandments. We just cannot do it, but IF we ask Him to take our sinful hearts and to make us want to do what is right then He will do whatever is needed to make us into the type of person we really are wanting to be anyway.
I heard a statement once that I really had to think about, because at first it made NO SENSE! But after thinking about it for a long time I realized that it was very Biblical. Here is what I heard: Man does that sound stupid. If I love God I'm sure not going to continue doing what I have always done, but that is NOT what was said. Think of it this way,
It won't be like you were talking about, where you just accept God's gift of eternal life and then continue doing as you have always done. You won't want to do those things that hurt Him anymore. (By the way, why do you suppose God is hurt when we do things He has asked us not to do? Could it be because we are the ones being hurt and that in turn hurts Him? That kind of sounds like LOVE to me!)
Actually, when you stop to think about it, everything God has done for us has been done because He loves us and wants us to be totally free and happy. Pretty amazing! But just remember, God is not angry with you, only angry towards the things that hurt you.
Blessings my friend.
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Posted 06/26/2009 08:12pm
Author: lineman
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Johnny,
I am certainly not trying to confuse you. We are all accountable to God and I implore you to pray and search the Scriptures for yourself. Read through the New Testament and call out to God for wisdom. I think you will find that any "gospel" that claims you have to earn favor before God is no gospel at all. I especially encourage you to read Romans 7 and 8.
On your point about taking the salvation of God and "running" I would say the following: Jesus died to save you from sins, not to give you license to endulge in it. God has called you to more than the rat race the world is involved in through self-indulgence and things which deserve the wrath of the Almighty. Yet he has saved you and poured out his mercy on you by sending his Son to die in your place and give you fullness of life. Why run back to those things which are shameful and enslaving? God has called you to holiness and a life that makes an eternal difference in those around you. How could someone who understands this amazing love and sees the sinless Son of God dying for them turn and plunge themselves in evil? Scripture is clear that sin entangles, enslaves and decieves. While some may not agree with me, I believe that sin will harden your heart towards the truth of your faith and plunge you into darkness and cause you to cast aside your faith in the grace of God. This is a serious matter. Be very cautious how you live. Strive to build your faith, not because God is angry, but because he is gracious and our faith is our only access to that grace. Guard your faith and build it. For it is written:
See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sinâs deceitfulness. We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first (Hebrews 3:12-14).
In His Mercy,
Chad
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Posted 06/26/2009 10:09pm
Author: mathetes
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Ok thanks for the good info, but my concerns remain the same.
I am told to respect the "office" of my Pastor and not argue, and I would assume that this means Priests, Popes, other Clergy etc. The problem remains the same. Not just for me but for anyone that would be witness to a service conducted by Pastor Craig and the many others that teach the Gospel in similair fashion.
So what happens? Are we to be fools for accepting the guidance of one over the other. Mathates, a proclaimed Pastor, has given a somewhat different perspective on the whole matter, but what do I do? Change PAstors? That's disrespect to the office. He is so sure he that his beliefs and interpretation of scripture are true. Mathates is just as confident in his. How do I know I am not being led astray by him, pastor Craig, or both and there is some third party that would say both of them are wrong, here is the right way!?
Again, both Pastors on the same team preaching altering interpretations? How do I reconcile that? And how do I tell my Pastor is wrong when doing so would be a violation of doctrine? How can a man appointed by God screw it up? Then whats wrong with God (sorry God).Oh man... .I feel like a third stringer on a winning team.
So let's say I decide that Pastor Craig got it wrong!? What about the hundreds that listen to him and feel great! I spoke with one of his members today. She said she had cancer and after spending a weekend retreat with pastor Craig she is in remission! Well Praise Jesus!!! But then he must be doing something right even though apparently he's got it all wrong... .How the heck do I continue...
Thanks for your help though guys.
Blessings
-Johnny
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Posted 06/27/2009 12:12pm
Author: johnnyhawk
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Johnny-
You can respect someone based on their position. But that does not mean you are obligated to believe everything they say, especially if you find that the Word of God contradicts their position. Again, you can be respectful and disagree. If you feel your pastor is teaching false doctrine than you have an OBLIGATION to submit to God's Word over any man. If the issue is just a debatable issue and not one that impacts the gospel or salvation, then you can just disagree quietly. However, if your pastor is teaching what you claim:
1) God is angry with you even though you have accepted Christ and are a Christian
2) As a Christian you are still in danger of being lost because of your past sins
3) You have to "earn" your righteousness before God based on your works
then that, my friend, is heresy and a doctrine that will lead men to eternal condemnation. Listen to what Paul says about those who preach such things...
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospelâ” which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned (Gal. 1:6-9)!
Paul goes on to explain this false "gospel" in that very same letter:
You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort (Gal. 3:1-3)?
Just because someone has a title does not mean you follow them to destruction. You will be judged by your own faith and your own actions, Johnny. God has given pastors and teachers to the church to teach and build believers to a closer walk with God. But that does not mean their words are infallible or that you are forced to embrace their teachings. Jesus calls you to be discerning and wise in who you follow, for there are many false teachers and false signs. Let the Word of God be your ultimate guide...not me, your pastor, or anyone else. Be humble and open, but discerning and cautious.
Matthew 7:15-23
2 Peter 2:1-3
Acts 20:29-31
Be blessed.
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Posted 06/27/2009 01:25pm
Author: mathetes
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Hi Johnny,
The ONLY way to know who is telling the truth is to listen to the Bible for yourself. Listen to what Jesus Himself said and then if someone speaks contrary to Him you will KNOW that this person has some wrong and incorrect information. The Bible says in Isaiah 8:20,
I'm not trying to say that Pastor Craig is trying to lead you astray intentionally because this may be all that he knows, even though it is NOT Biblical. But it is so important to your salvation that you owe it to yourself to find out the truth. Pastor Chad has told you the truth above, as found in the Bible, but even then, do not take anyone's word for it. Don't trust your salvation to ANY man, not even to me if I was a pastor.
You keep bringing up the pastor's "office". It is well to respect the office of a person, but if your pastor told you to kill yourself wouldn't you get a second opinion, kind of like you are doing here? Even in the days of Jesus the "office" of priest (pastor) was respected by most, including Jesus. But even Jesus stood up to the priests and leaders. He pointed to the scriptures when it was obvious that they were not following what had been written down for them.
Pastors, priests and popes are all humans, and we humans are not perfect like God is. We all make comments sometimes that we wish we had not made. Or later when we find out the truth we might wish that we had not lead someone in the wrong direction. I work at a place where I am asked for directions quite often and once in awhile someone else may show me a better way for me to direct people. Does that mean that I was trying to lead someone down the wrong path before? Of course not. And more than likely, your current pastor is not intentionally trying to lead you down the wrong path either, but there will be some people (pastors included) who will be very disappointed when Jesus comes and tells them that He never knew them (Matthew 7:22, 23).
Again, trust NO man with your salvation! Seek Jesus first and then your salvation will be secure because He is the ONLY One who can make that happen. (Matthew 6:33)
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Posted 06/27/2009 01:44pm
Author: lineman
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I brought up the subject of respecting the pastor's office... I misspoke when I used the word office,- I meant anointing.
The office of pastor is one of the gifts given to us by Jesus Himself, Eph.4:11-12 and I agree with mathetes and lineman here
this particular pastor is off the mark when compared with what the Bible teaches.
We should respect the anointing on an office given by Jesus Himself and if he is taching false doctrine, you owe it to yourself to leave and find the truth-as taught in the Bible.
hope this clarifes the issue.
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Posted 06/27/2009 02:08pm
Author: blackrose65
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The anointing... - the rubbed on, smeared on, power of God Himself.. commonly represented by oil as exemplified in...Exodus29:7, and in our Saviour's name.. He is called The Christ - The Anointed One in Greek... His Title in Hebrew, Yeshua Meschiah( I think that's how you spell that last word...) means "The Anointed One and His Anointing"
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Posted 06/27/2009 02:17pm
Author: blackrose65
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Dear Johnnyhawk,
I am going to keep my comment short, sweet and simple. At least that's what I'll try for, because I tend to get wordy... 
Once you accept Jesus into your life as your Saviour, you are saved. It is a freely given gift, paid for by the blood of Jesus Christ. It is for EVERYONE who asks for it. We do not pay for it, we simply take it. It is truly as easy as it sounds. The part so many good folks have trouble with is BELIEVING it and having FAITH in Jesus and RELIANCE on God. They think they need to do something to earn it, since that's our way here in the Earthly realm, but the Bible clearly states that there is NO AMOUNT OF WORKS that can earn our way into Heaven. God does not and will not ever discriminate based on works.
The only gate into Heaven is through Christ Jesus. He holds the keys. Shortly after coming to faith, I prayed and asked if i was truly worthy of Jesus' sacrifice for me... but before i could finish my thought, a large and loud voice interrupted and clearly proclaimed "I DID NOT DIE PARTIALLY FOR ONE AND FULLY FOR ANOTHER!" i had my answer... clear as a beautiful bell. He died for us all. All we need to do is accept it.
What many people don't do after accepting Jesus' offer of salvation is to submit their lives to God's will (they want all the goodies and rewards without any of the sacrifice). That means letting go of old ways, turning your life over completely to Jesus, letting Him take the reins. Now the cool thing is, that once you submit your life, your will and your heart to God, then the Holy Spirit takes over and transforms us. You will find yourself less interested in what God can do for you and more interested in what you can do for God. It's a beautiful, peaceful, joyful feeling of "giving back", so to speak, to our Saviour.
The enormity and capacity of what Jesus did for me is something that I'll never be able to fully grasp... all I know is that I HAVE TO DO SOMETHING BACK FOR HIM! He is like the beach and I'm only a tiny grain of sand in that beach, but with all of us together, I know we can make a huge difference in what we can do for God.
The word of God is branded into our hearts. Pray, my friend, and ask God questions. Seek and be amazed at all the resources God will place in front of you. Get your Bible out and start reading the New Testament, which holds all of God's promises for us and see for yourself what you already know. Underline (use a nice red color pencil) all the important passages that have meaning to you.
Make Jesus the center of your life and rely on God. He WILL show you the way, and the truth. And be patient... it is a glorious journey worth savoring.
Barb
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Posted 06/28/2009 12:48pm
Author: barbarajean
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One more thing...I suggest you read the blog written by galahad entitled "The Names of God: "The Word" "Christ Our Creator". It may help clarify things for you.
Godspeed
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Posted 06/28/2009 02:39pm
Author: barbarajean
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so far everyone (including me, I might add...) is on point... I never said that being respectful was doctrine. and every one that comes to Christ has to learn how to be a Christian
We have to study and show ourselves approved of God... you can read the Bible, in fact God wants you to!
NO one gets a free pass on developing a relationship with God and I wrote a blog about it.. hope it helps.
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Posted 06/28/2009 04:12pm
Author: blackrose65
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I have been reading these comments, and your responses to them.. and to be truthful Im not entirely sure you are not winding us up. And I say this out of love because of two specific reasons. You insist that you want to do it your way.... you and I both know that we cannot earn our way into heaven, and you know sir by trying to do so you are denying the work of the cross in all its grace and mercy and love.
I don't mean to sound harsh here and I do apologise If I come across here as such but I do wish you would quit looking at Athiests as lesser that you or I.. We have all sinned, and Christ calls the Athiest just as he calls you. He loves them just as he loves you and he, if he were on earth right now would be sitting down to dinner with them and having fellowship with them. You see with God there is no difference in Athiest, Drunkard, thief, Liar, Murderer.. what God sees is a sinner in need of his Sons redeeming Blood.
Now I will say no more for Im really not sure whats going on here.
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Posted 06/29/2009 01:55am
Author: bethy
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I'm sorry, but a pastor or any other form of 'office' are just human beings like anyone else. They are just as capable of making mistakes as anyone else. So yes, respect them as a person but don't act like they hold a 'higher position' than other people. You have to study on your own and find out how you interpret the bible. Everyone believes in things a little differently, which is why it's confusing you.
Personally, I don't think your pastor is right. God has eternal patience and loves us more than we can imagine. Its not like he tallies up all of the wrongs and rights we do in our life and compare them to decide whether or not we go to heaven. That's not how he works.
Plus if you are only living the Christian life to save yourself from hell, then your heart is in the wrong place. Why is it that you're living a Christian life now?
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Posted 06/30/2009 11:31am
Author: jsewell94
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