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I'm with you here on the marginalized men part. Society in general has somehow made men expendable, and it has leaked into church. As far as my personal church goes, though, I see that a main problem is that the men simply aren't stepping up to the plate. In many situations, women need to fill in roles simply because there aren't men there to do them.
As far as the song about looking on Jesus beautiful face... I absolutely never ever thought of it as literal. Ever. I simply thought that one would think that Jesus was beautiful simply because He is Savior. Because His love is beautiful. It never even crossed my mind that it was referring to him in a feminine or physical way. I do not know about the song about extravagant love...
That really is a problem though, if people are singing these praise songs and not even thinking about the words. Why say (or sing) something you don't mean? And how can you mean what you're saying something if you don't even know what it is?
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Posted 06/28/2009 04:05pm
Author: whobelieve
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Wish the real guys will stand up and become worship leaders too.
Can't blame the ladies if they have to fill in the gaps left by unwilling men who would not obey God. They sing to the Lord.. (although I too think sometimes there are too many feminist songs )... ... they sing sincerely... .the resolution will come automatically if the real guys will come to the fore.
Same too for songwriters. We need more real guys who will write to the glory of God.
We need to pray for the brothers the Lord has inspired to be strong, given talent to sing and in music, to be obedient and follow as He leads.
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Posted 06/29/2009 08:38am
Author: ptl2008
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Thanks for the comments whobelieve and ptl2008. Apologies for the late response.
While one of my points is that it's tragic that folks tend not to think or pay attention to praise lyrics, the larger point is that we've gotten to the point where we see worship as only, or mostly, singing songs. While that may be a large part of 'praise', it's a shallow view of 'worship'. It takes worship into the realm of emotion (again, feminizing), and away from spiritual service and discipline.
I suppose the issue can be seen as a chicken-vs-egg scenario; are men disengaged because the church has become feminized, or is church feminized because men are disengaged? My experience, and male perspective, says it's the former more-so than the latter. As one who has tried to advocate for masculinity in church leadership, I can tell you that the fierce opposition one receives borders on not being worth the effort.
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Posted 07/02/2009 10:40am
Author: oldscool
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Wow. Now this is one I have not thought enough about but worthy of contemplation. Portraying Jesus as effeminate. I can see it happening though. And most definitely .. Words make a difference in everything. They are a powerful force. When I think of the word "dog", it immediately brings to my imagination a large brown four-legged creature. I go way past the word "dog" and my imagination takes over to paint a picture of what a dog looks like. "Suzie was sad" and you get a mental image of a sad girl. It's the image that ends up being important. And words are tools used to create that image, so how can one say words are not important? Wasn't the entire universe created with words? Lyrics or whatever .. words are too powerful to just throw around. Awesome realization, oldscool. I have no problem with women preaching and teaching and such .. Joyce Meyer is a powerhouse for the Holy Spirit. But, God is most definitely male and I take great comfort in that fact. Look forward to more of your posts .. thanks.
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Posted 07/02/2009 11:31am
Author: debradoo
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That's a blessing! Thanks debradoo. I'm glad my post spurred contemplation on your part. So many women (and some men) reflexively take opinions like this as attacks or critcism, which they're not meant to be.
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Posted 07/02/2009 01:29pm
Author: oldscool
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hmmm... . and what's wrong with a man passionatley worshipping Jesus? Some of the most powerful times of worshipping the Lord I have ever experienced have come from when a man leads the worship passionately declaring his love for God.
Some of the most passionate praise songs ever written were by a man, I believe his name was David...
while it may be true in a lot of churches women lead the worship, I'd like to add my voice to the question, why don't more men want to acknowledge they love Jesus?
and I too have issues with the projection of Jesus as a quiet, gentle man, but that's not who He is... sure He has His moments, but Anybody Who could go to the Eternal Smoking Section and singlehandedly whomp on the Enemy of Our Souls is neither weak or effeminate...
one more thing... check these lyrics, a love song to the Lord Jesus, Written by a man passionately in love with Him
How He Loves Us- John Mark McMillan
He is jealous for me
Loves like a hurricane, I am a tree
Bending beneath the weight
Of His wind and mercy
All of a sudden I am unaware of
These afflictions eclipsed by glory
And I realized just how beautiful You are
And how great Your affections are for me
We are His portion and He is our prize
Drawn to redemption by the grace in His eyes
If His grace is an ocean we're all sinking
And heaven meets earth like a sloppy, wet kiss
And my heart turns violently inside of my chest
I don't have time to maintain these regrets
When I think about the way that He loves us
that he loves us
oh how he loves us
oh how he loves us
how he loves us so
I am, by nature a passionate person... and the symbolism just knocked me out... just my two cents
selah.
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Posted 07/02/2009 01:54pm
Author: blackrose65
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And selah to you, blackrose65.
I believe you when you say that a man passionately leading worship touches you, and certain men, I'm sure. I would submit to you that it's because you're a woman. Praise and worship, as it is currently practiced and planned in the Western Church, is largely aimed at your tastes and your passions. Whether or not you see that as a problem, it's undeniable. Look around next time there's a passionate worship song. There will be a few men caught up in it, but I think you'll also see most men patiently waiting it out with hands in pockets. Most of us just don't respond to that kind of imagery.
Passion is a dangerous emotion. More damage has been done to the body of Christ by mis-directed or manipulated passion than by most anything else. That's one reason we need engaged men in our churches, to balance out the emotional influence of women. We're out of balance, is the point.
Speaking of lyrics, here's a sample from a popular song that I mentioned in my post. I believe this was also written by a man;
I'm sorry, but that is a sensual song that borders on erotic. It's inappropriate and mis-guided as an expression of worship. Very few men would be willing to sing that song and mean it.
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Posted 07/02/2009 03:26pm
Author: oldscool
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I would just like to add something here, again. :-) I do not want to stray from the subject of "Is Our Lampstand Threatened" and what I am saying here, does, (if one cares to make the connection) support the original blog. And that is how strongly words affect people. That is indeed an erotic song, Oldscool. But what angered me more than the eroticism is the line that reads "is the love that covers sin". Covers sin? In 1 John 1:7 the word used here is "cleanseth". In the Greek "cleanseth" is "katharizo". Which means .. purify, remove by cleansing, cleanse by curing .. etc. "Covers sin" ... Words used to create an image and this image is a false one, since covers is such a misleading term. The Blood of Jesus does not "cover sin". It eradicates sin. It removes sin. One small indiscriminate word, can mislead, misdirect, and misinform. This is probably one of Satan's greatest weapons .. reinventing the Word of God.
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Posted 07/03/2009 07:29am
Author: debradoo
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My pastor had no problem worshipping to the song I posted... and he has final say over all praise and worship in our services ... and a large number of men worship in our church. These same men also serve in our ministries of helps... I have an issue with western men as a whole... ( and I'm a western woman!) in that men find it quite acceptable to get half naked and scream and yell at an organized sports event, as a show of their love and devotion to a man made event, yet these same men that claim to be Christians find it shameful to lift their hands and declare their passionate love for God... btw.. selah means to pause, and calmly think on or meditate on what was previously stated...
be at peace
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Posted 07/03/2009 10:42am
Author: blackrose65
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Yes, blackrose, I got "Selah" and "Shalom" confused...
As to your comments, first off, it doesn't necessarily surprise me that your pastor supports a more emotional, feminized worship. Most pastors realize that it's the women in their churches that do the bulk of ministry, and they don't dare rock their boats.
Now what is your issue, exactly? Is it that 'Western' men don't express their faith the same as women? Would you have fewer issues with Middle Eastern or Eastern men, who might expect you to cover yourself and segregate from them in worship?
Yes, Western men do tend to identify (and show a certain kind of 'love', and certainly devotion) with a cause or battle. That's the need that sports fills for the western male, whose culture has taken away almost every other battle he could participate in or support. There is no cause, no outcome or goal, to declaring 'passionate love for God'. Men don't typically declare 'passionate' love for other men, especially their fathers. It's not something that's programmed into them. Nor should it be expected or required of them.
An interesting thing to note is that other religions like Judaism, Islam and Mormonism don't have the same problem of male disengagement that Christianity currently does. Why would that be? It's mainly because those faiths require something of men, like discipline and a cause or identity to struggle for, not the warm fuzzies of a passionate love relationship. For today's perpetually adolescent, directionless males, that kind of faith fills a need. A need that Christianity should be filling, but isn't.
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Posted 07/03/2009 05:13pm
Author: oldscool
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I agree with the blog writer, yet emotions and feelings of love do not necessarily have to oppose substance and doctrinal content in singing worship songs. John leaned on the breast of Christ and "love is kind" as well as "love rejoices in the truth." Great theology from the Bible can produce great emotions from the heart. Hymns from the 1600-1700's are my favorite. Blessings and thanks for the stimulating subject matter.
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Posted 07/03/2009 05:28pm
Author: apologetics
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Has the church become more feminized because we men have allowed it to. Are we cowed by the society we live in. It is unfortunate that the church follows the society rather than being independent from it, but alas that is the fact. Since society views masculinity as a negative so does the church, and we men often do not have the stomach to do something about it.
I would be interested in how men would describe a Christianity that they would be comfortable partaking in. I mean specifically what would such a church look like? What would men's and women's roles be in such a church?
I believe that persecution is in the future of all true believers in Christ and such persecution will probably have a purifying effect on the church. But as Jesus wondered will there be faith on the earth when it happens?
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Posted 07/03/2009 06:13pm
Author: christianwalker
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If you want to lead then LEAD. Stand up and sing the Loudest, the Boldest, with the most Strength. Make every man, teen, boy, and child look over and say, I don't know what it is but He must know the Lord to be so bold. Make them see who and why you are what you are in the Lord and quit compromising and whining. Frankly if you don't like the worship, then you change it. Women have stepped in where men have stepped/run away, shame on us. Ladies, keep on singing and worshiping with all your heart, since the men have stopped, if you stop, it will be left to the rocks to cry out his praises. Men who sit back and whine and whimper have words of no value, either sing and worship 110% or move over and let someone who will, you decide who will lead the next generation of men into worship.
PapaBear
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Posted 07/07/2009 05:22am
Author: greybear
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Didn't this blog start out with how the church is seemingly trying to feminize Jesus Christ? I hope you do not mind but I would like to add .. to the original blog .. how many times the angels of the Bible have been depicted in paintings, statues, figurines, etc. as women. Nowhere in the Bible is there a feminine angel. If there is, please show me as I have missed such. Thanks.
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Posted 07/07/2009 06:55am
Author: debradoo
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Thanks again for 'getting it', Debradoo. Unfortunately, this is the response one gets when pointing out the problem and advocating for masculinity in the church. Women, and softer men, respond emotionally to things not stated, avoiding the real issue.
Christianwalker, I agree, men have allowed this to happen. Mostly in the desire for peace and accommodating political correctness. To remake the church into something that men would be comfortable with would be a very painful process, meeting resistance and hostility. It would have to start with abandoning our desire to see God as who we would LIKE Him to be, and taking a hard look at who He IS.
Greybear, if men were 'whining', I'd say you were right. But the problem is, per my above examples, men are mostly passive in the face of an ever-more feminized church and theology. Or they're just plain leaving. They certainly aren't coming back by being told they're whiners. We wouldn't approach any other demographic with that attitude, would we? And I'm all for changing worship. The first step in change - identify the problem.
Let me also suggest that you make the classic mistake of defining worship as singing passionately. It is not. Worship is an all-encompassing work of service involving our whole selves. In our shallow emotionalism, we think we are worshiping only when we are moved through song. And I doubt many men will look to you for inspiration if you loudly, boldly sing of Jesus' beautiful face, or being 'spread wide' within His arms.
Worship songs are only the most obvious symptom of a deeper issue. My original question still stands; Will a feminine view of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who gave His only Son on the cross and built His Church upon the rock of Peter and the Disciples, cause us to lose Him?
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Posted 07/07/2009 05:27pm
Author: oldscool
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ok, if the appearance is an issue, draw, paint, give the Lord a "high and tight" if you want to, put Him in a pair of jeans, Most of the angles I've ever seen artistic depictions of have been of big men with long blond hair.yes, I've seen some female angels too, but the Bible calls some angels specifically by name, and those names are all masculine, Like Michael...
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Posted 07/07/2009 05:59pm
Author: blackrose65
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I have sat back and watched this blog develop into something that tears apart rather than edifies. I am a man and I take pride in being a man for and of God. I am also not the least bit ashamed to say that I love the women God has set in the church and I admire their commitment and willingness to unabashedly worship and love the Lord Jesus Christ without all the junk men have which keeps them from showing emotion and letting their hearts boldly worship their Lord the way David did.
I think this whole discussion is getting very close to some spiritual lines I don't think should be crossed. My Bible, for anyone who still bothers to read it or believe it, says that within the One Body of Christ there is neither male nor female, bond nor free etc. etc. Knowing this, how on earth can there be some kind of discussion regarding whether women are taking over the church with their brand of worship? Listen folks, we either need to grow up and believe what the Bible says about issues or take our petty arguing to Jerry Springer.
I will boldly say to anyone who dares to listen that there is ZERO justification in God's Word for attempting to split apart the unity of the ONE BODY by fabricating a problem that is not the issue. The issue is that people, male and female, don't love God and they don't want to do what the Bible says is supposed to be done when worshiping the Lord. Let's get honest and quit saying things which only hurt, anger and make the women who read this feel inferior or that they are the source of the problem (if there even is one).
Good grief, the problem is wimpy, lazy and self serving men who are forced to attend church when they would rather be playing golf or sleeping in. The problem is men who would rather pass the buck to the women to do everything so they can hang out outside smoking and talking about the big game later. I know for I have seen these men for 40 years occupying pews on Sunday morning and at the bar the rest of the week. Hypocrisy is what is destroying the church and not worship songs which show genuine love for Jesus Christ.
I have many good friends on this site who are women and who have been hurt by this whole discussion. I don't blame them for feeling hurt and being angry. They are not the problem and I am tired of things being written that indicate they are. Until and unless God's men rise up and start carrying the ball, the women must carry it--God has no one else.
Thank You,
B2Y
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Posted 07/07/2009 06:34pm
Author: blessings2you
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B2Y, I'm sorry, but I'm afraid you, and the women you mentioned (and some of the posters) have missed the point of my blog, which further illustrates the problem. If we can't discuss theological issues and how they are put into practice, if we can't face hard Truth and examine whether or not we have strayed from orthodoxy, if questions can't even be asked without emotions running high, then we are not loving God with all our minds and our strength, (Mark 12:30) and as a body of believers we are vulnerable to deception, compromise, and divisions.
This is a real issue. If we do not have a right view of God (which is what this discussion SHOULD be about), then our faith will not stand up to testing, and our message to the world will be false.
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Posted 07/07/2009 09:36pm
Author: oldscool
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Hmm,
I think a lot of people are reading a lot more into this blog than should be intended 
I read this blog when it was posted and pretty much thought the point the author was trying to get across -- that men have failed the church for the last two centries which has lead to a church filled with 90+% women -- was perfectly clear.
Geh, last I checked *one of* the purpose of a blog was to discuss things. No, not argue things, but I see no arguments going on here, just interesting discussion on something beyond obvious... men have left the church, women have not, and thus our churches are filled with women and MEN are at fault for the problems with the church. If "Christian men" would actually BE "Christian men" the problems facing the church today would cease to be problems. To have a discussion about this is all of a sudden unacceptable?
If you ask me, if women read this and think they are at blame, they are reading something into this blog that isn't there - I could be wrong though. I cannot find a single thing in the blog that attacks women. Nothing. Nadda. So, seriously... what's the hang-up folks?
How can people be getting hurt by this blog? (unless it is men who are being convected - which would be a good thing, they need to be about this issue) This blog reflects exactly the same thing as what GreyBear has said and you all are not attacking him. The facts are clear, men have failed the church. Women have had to fill the roles that rightfully belong to men who are suppose to be "Godly men". If this offends people, it comes directly back to the failure of those men out there who claim to be Christians yet fail to fulfill their role within their home, church and community.
Geeh, isn't that exactly what the point of this blog was all about - shugs-shoulders
Seriously folks... it seems a lot of you have mis-read this blog... go back and re-read it as it was intended, or move on.
Like I said to GreyBear above, "Well Said!"
Great blog and great discussion... except those of you reading this blog wrong and making an issue out of it. Either figure out what it's about or move on. Thanks 
I just want to close my thoughts with one thing from the original blog..
You are so dead-on right with this. A few years back when I was still ministering within the four walls of a church I was able to attend a conference in which this issue was addressed. I think almost every church in America (the world??) has realized that men just don't go to church anymore. This has resulted in women having to take on more and more responsibilities within the church - responsible that are clearly outlined within the Holy Bible as roles that only men should be done within the church.
This is not, as you pointed out oldschool, you being feministic, but rather being totally factual. I am not going to get into a debate about what roles within the church women should or should not have positions as (that is a whole other topic that has been discussed before), but the Bible is very clear that some roles within the church are to be roles that only men have. Yet within many churches today there are not many (any!) men that are devoted enough (if at all) to the church to rightly grant the responsibilities of those roles too - thus the church leader(s) have had to turn to the only other available group to gather from - women.
This is clearly an issue facing the church today. Pastors around the world have been in discussion of this for many years. So don't feel like your a lone goose here oldschool. There are millions of men out there who claim to be Christians who are failing their God by not being true men of God and doing their part within the four walls of the church. At one time PromiseKeepers had a major movement to change this - yet sadly it seems even most of those men have stopped honoring their God, their Church, and their family - and gone back to Nascar on Sundays.
John B. Abela
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Posted 07/07/2009 11:02pm
Author: abelajohnb
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Hi
I am delighted to be in a church where the old people grin from ear to ear when the younger generation are taking part in the service. It is so exciting to see young people, the future of the church and the present of the church (I wrote about youth in a blog). Some people take their eyes of Jesus instead of focusing on what they have gone to church for, I used to go to Bible study to get, then I realised I wasn't getting anything I decided to go and give , to encourage everyone in everyway shape or form I could and serve as Jesus served. That is when i suddenly got all I needed. It is so hard to do the right thing. Been there done that. John Bevere said last night that a weak man will try to oppress women but a strong man will recognise that Galatians 3:26:29 whether slave or free, male or female, jew or gentile, we can all serve. I lost my husband partlybecause God called me to study and go into the ministry, my husband wanted a subservient little woman and I wanted to be one, but God scared me, by trapping me in a van for a long time until I said I would do his will, then someone appeared from no-where and rescued my boy and I. It is God's will that counts, not ours. Now when I look back my husband was so bad to me I was so blinded by love, that I dismissed his abuse as mistakes other people would not understand. Let us both remember each Sunday in church it is not about getting what we want it is all about God. Don't know if any of this is relevant to what you were saying, I just scanned I can't read very well, the letters swim about.
Have a fantastic day, praying God will increase your faith, growth and confidence to serve,
Love, hugs & kisses
in Christ
Alison McQueen
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Posted 07/08/2009 03:39am
Author: alisonwhitefordmcq
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Thank you for the voice of wisdom, John, and thank all of you for your input. This blog and discussion have served, in my view, to illustrate the problem perfectly. I hope those who were/are offended will realize that open discussion is part of "iron sharpening iron", and it need not be something to be feared or avoided. My goal is/was to stimulate debate, and hopefully future blogs and discussions will do the same.
God Bless
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Posted 07/08/2009 09:49am
Author: oldscool
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I'm most curious as to when beauty and weakness got linked together? Hmmm ... and it makes me laugh to read anything that suggests women are weak, because ... well, it's just plain funny. Give birth one time and tell me whose weak. Lol ... riiight.
As for singing praises to God, and seeing Him for the lovely, plain old lovely, that He is ... well ... there's nothing feminine about it. Period.
And women in leadership? I suggest one take a look at Deborah. Wasn't she the first judge sent to guide and instruct Israel when they were a mess? Um ... yes.
Okay. 'Nuff said by Mona.
Well, maybe just one more thing: Wow. 
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Posted 07/09/2009 08:09am
Author: ilovehimso
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You're just as free to miss the point as the other commentors, Mona. But thank you for bringing up Deborah.
After all that Deborah did, the first thing she acknowledges in her song is that Israel's princes and kings were the ones to take the lead. She knew it wasn't about her. It was about what God, and His will was, and is, that we see Him as masculine and that men should take the lead His church. It wasn't threatening to Deborah, and it shouldn't be to women today.
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Posted 07/09/2009 09:54am
Author: oldscool
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Just a submission about what may have been regarded as sensuality in worship music. To start with, if we feel that the lyrics to that song quoted above is too sensual then we should be quite uncomfortable with the entire Song of Songs in our Bibles and we would think that the various expressions of mutual love between John and Jesus are inappropriate. Oh, and isn't that an example of a man declaring love for another man (or declaring another man's love for him) in the Bible? Then there's David and Jonathan too. They were all men of faith and one of them is our Messiah. There is nothing wrong or embarrassing about expressing love for another man, much less expressing love for God.
Worship is passionate. We are "the Bride" and as worshipers find deeper and deeper intimacy with His Spirit, we are sometimes at a loss for words to express the ecstasy of being in His presence. The language has a tendency of becoming sensual but that should in no way be regarded as erotic (to oldscool's credit he did say "borders on" erotic). There is a beauty in the love between a "Husband" and "His Bride". The sensual language of love is being used to describe a spiritual communion rather than a carnal one. It is our flesh that perceives eroticism where there is simply pure communion with His Spirit.
We shouldn't allow the passion of worship to threaten our masculinity. Our masculinity is not so fragile as to be threatened by a few words expressing passion for our Lord. If someone sheds tears during worship, then he or she is able to be touched by passionate worship. I say bravo and who are we to judge or mock? Why should we take offense? Loving God is a passionate affair. I am passionate about Him and I am not afraid to admit that I love Him and to express it in to the limits of human vocabulary. Come to my church and you'll see grown men cry. We do because we are not ashamed to submit to Him and bare our hearts to seek Him. As we draw near to Him, He responds. I would challenge anyone to pray, fast and sincerely seek God in the early hours of the morning for just one week and not experience the ecstasy of being in His presence. Feminization is not the issue here and we shouldn't be confusing it with love. Our Greatest Commandment is to love Him with all our hearts, our minds and soul - and to love each other too, even brothers. There is no reason for anyone to be embarrassed about expressing it passionately. There is no place for scorn towards that either. Respectfully, I disagree with Oldscool's viewpoint about passionate worship - which was not something factual but simply an expressed opinion. Nothing against you Oldscool, my brother, and in case you are wondering, I am your brother too and I love you   
...now if I'd done that to a woman she might have gotten the wrong idea but with you, not a chance! How much safer can it be to express love for a brother?
As for other factual observations about male attendance in church and the lack of participation etc. They are true and I think everyone is agreeing with that. Oh, one more thing, there is actually one biblical record of angels bearing female form. See Zechariah 5:9.
And sorry, one more last thing... I disagree with the exegesis of Revelation 2:4-5 submitted that purports the loss of the lampstand due to the loss of conviction of Jesus' identity. It doesn't say that. It tells us to return to our first love. If we love someone, we do not mistaken the person's identity. Love shows we belong to Jesus (John 13:34-35). Love causes us to keep His commandments (John 14:21). Love shows we abide with Jesus (John 15:10). God is love and if we don't know love we don't know God either (1 John 4:8). If we love God we would love Him with a pure heart and we would not be averse to expressing or experiencing it. Do we love God and do we have that intimate communion with Him so that He knows us too? We are not known by our works or church attendance but by our love for God (Matthew 7:22-23; Luke 13:26-27; John 5:42). I don't think there is any room here for putting our personal opinions about feminization of God into Revelation 2:4-5. Granted though that there is feminization of the church and God to a certain degree but what I have indicated disagreement with are just not good examples to make that point - which by the way I am not disagreeing with.
I believe there are a few issues here that have been mixed up. Sometimes we see something and we start reading our observation into everything. We need to take a step back. There are also personal viewpoints attached that have become mangled within the many issues. It is dangerous to project a point of view too far without clearly differentiating the issues.
I rarely comment in blogs like this but I just sincerely felt that my brother B2Y (whom I love dearly) has been steamrolled here for simply expressing an open opinion that was not personal in any way. The comment was directed at the entire discussion and not at oldscool. Perhaps we've read too much into B2Y's comment also . No biggie though, I've done that myself often enough ... what was that phrase? "loose tongue..err fingers"? I might regret writing all this tomorrow... so please allow me to apologise in advance...
God bless to all...
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Posted 07/09/2009 10:29am
Author: doulos
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Lol ... thanks, Oldskool, for the great laugh, today.
It's not threatening to me if men step up to the plate and take the lead. Not a problem in my church, so maybe that's why the idea of sexism being an issue at all is foreign. I mean, it's not rocket science to know that God made Adam the head ... duh. We all know that man was supposed to lead all along, not just in church, but in the home as well. And how many single mother's do we have in the world? How many children would be in orphanages, if every baby whose dad sired him and then ran off also had a mother who thought, "well, I must have a man to lead ... so I can't do this whole "family thing" ... no man, no man ... oh dear, what shall I do? I'm not good for anything without a man!" Yes, I know ... ridiculous, right? It would be nice if everything had gone as God intended it, but it didn't did it? Eve screwed up, and when she looked to her LEADER, instead of chastising her and refusing to go along with her blatant disobedience, he caved, didn't he? I think that's enough examples of failure of leadership and how women may need to just manage without them, sometimes, don't you?
My praise and worship partner is a man. May I tell you how unreliable he is? Do I love him? Yes. He has his moments. But in all truth, I've stopped counting the disasters that our praise and worship service has undergone (or would have, if I hadn't been prepared) when in his GREAT "leadership" he dropped the ball... or didn't even show up for service. Or came riding up on his motorcycle, without his instruments, because the weather was "too nice to ride in the car" ... thinking we'd just "wing" it acapella that day (and truthfully, knowing he could get away with because MONA wouldn't let anyone down and would have music planned, practiced, printed into lyrics for the congregation, etc.).
But this in no way relates to praise and worship being feminine. It's just not true, and plain silly to suggest it. Singing praise to God is subjective to each singer. And you're right. It was NOT about Deborah ... but He did send her to speak for Him ... so you continue to make my point for me, even though you said earlier that God didn't send women. Not true.
It is also NOT about men vs. women, in today's church. It SHOULD be about praising God, but sometimes, I guess men begin feeling a little insecure? Bless their hearts. They shouldn't. If the women are close to God, and He moves them to take leadership positions ... yay for them. How did they get there? Perhaps men weren't getting the job done? If that's your point, I agree. But again, not an issue where I attend. We all have our strengths and weaknesses. Men and women work together in leadership there. Not too caught up worrying about the silliness of genitalia ... and more concerned with worshiping God, feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, visiting and getting help for the sick, etc. etc. Yeh, not too much time to be caught up in pettiness, so if I'm not good at dissecting the "problem", I guess it's because I don't recognize it as such.
And no offense, brother, but you did start out your original post calling a horse a horse, (or were you calling a chauvinist a donkey?)I mean, I see no point in berating you for being one. You said it yourself.
"What's an old chauvinist to do?" you said.
I guess it's probably meant to be rhetorical, but ... since you asked, I'd say Grey Bear said it best.
Stop whining and do something about it if you don't think your women"folk" are doing a good job of praising God the way you think it ought to be done. How did they beat you awesome male-leaders up to the platform again?
May God bless us all ... the great leaders of our day, no matter what sex they are.
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Posted 07/09/2009 10:53am
Author: ilovehimso
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I am new to this Blog site and I am reading with great interest the many blogs on here. This one captured my attention completely. The sad reality from my perspective is that men have not stepped up in the Western Church. I am a professor of Communication Studies at a Christian Liberal Arts University in Canada. I am also a lay pastor at a street level ministry and have spoken widely in many of the local churches in my region. Like so many of you, I lead Bible Studies, teach Sunday School, and organize missions activities in each of the venues I have mentioned. Here are my observations:
1. Women in the Western Church (at least in my corner of the woods) are far more engaged. The number of female volunteers in the street level ministry in which I work outnumber men by a ratio of at least 6 to 1. I find this astonishing and disheartening when you consider that we work with some of the roughest and most difficult of peoples, addicts, alcoholics, homeless, runaways, youth-at-risk, ex-convicts, and so on. If men should be at the forefront of ministries this should be one because they are so desperately needed. Yet when I go from church to church, Bible College to Bible College, the response is the same. Many more women step up to serve than men. Believe me when I say that my messages have been hard hitting, unadulterated and unequivocal.
2. There are also numerically more women engaged in Bible Studies and Small Groups than men. Once again this is disheartening. Moreover, the number of men that are actually leaders in these groups are not only diminutive, they are diminishing! Perhaps this is a Canadian phenomenon, but I doubt it. If men are to be Christian leadership, the first and foremost involvement they should be in is the active and passionate study of the Word. Please do not mistake me, I am certain that men also devote themselves to private studies and devotions, but developing leadership, learning how to field tough questions, learning what it means to be a servant leader must be built and tested in the environment of Christian fellowship.
3. We can blame the secular world for the "feminization" of the Church, but I would remind us that we can blame secular society for just about everything wrong with this world: materialism, sinfulness, disengagement, apathy, self-centeredness etc ... What makes the issue of "feminization" any different from any of the ills that plague us? I firmly believe that the issue is NOT a sinful world (ruled by the Prince of this world) which is in constant opposition to the Church, constantly trying to influence the Church in an attempt to undermine it's ministry. As my students would say, "Like Doh! Didn't the Bible already tell us this?". The issue is is that WE let it.
I have joined this blog as ArisenSleeper because I firmly believe that Christians in the Western World need to awake. I also believe that the Kingdom of God has already won the victory and His Will will be done with or without us. Nonetheless, I believe that we still have to become awakened ... BOTH men and women. In the context of this Blog ... it is us men. I pray that we will not just lament the situation we are in but become active warriors in prayer, thought, and deed.
Lastly, I am humbled by the role that women have played so far in sustaining the Church as it currently is (flawed though it may be). Well done sisters! I challenge all of us, men, to rise up, encourage, urge, cajole, and most of all pray for our Brothers in Christ to restore the spiritual leadership of men in our Churches. Brothers the harvest is plentiful and the workers are few. Let us awake.
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Posted 07/09/2009 11:09am
Author: arisensleeper
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By the way, I have just upgraded my membership and will be posting some of my Bible Studies, Devotionals, and Sermon Outlines. These include poems! Men can be just a passionate as women but it is a different kind of passion. Moreover, please be reminded that while our God is most definitively male, His word also describes Him as a hen gathering her chicks to her and as a mother loving her offspring. Our notions of maleness and femaleness are the construction of a fallen world. In Him there is neither male nor female. If we would allow ourselves to acknowledge that, perhaps we would be able to devote ourselves to revival and restoration. Blessings and may His peace guide our discussion.
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Posted 07/09/2009 11:32am
Author: arisensleeper
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I agree with you Grey Bear the men need to stand up and lead in our churches and quit complaining and be obedient to the calling that God has placed on their hearts. My church may worship to songs at times that I don't really care for and we also worship to more masculine songs. But either way it is the heart that God is looking into and we should be worshipping unto the Lord. Also the men need to stop drinking milk and start eating meat.
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Posted 07/09/2009 11:34am
Author: chdldry
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Personally, I could care less if we sing "masculine" or "feministic" songs... but what I do want to see is worship leaders take their keys down a couple of freaking notes! I am SICK AND TIRED of walking into churches and they are singing songs at keys for women and not men! You people want to know why we men don't sing... it's because when the church is 90%+ women the worship leaders have to change keys to compensate for higher pitch singers - women. Well, how in the world do you expect us guys to sing at keys that are two or three pitches to high for us. Sheesh.
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Posted 07/09/2009 12:07pm
Author: abelajohnb
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Well said abelajohnb, I just learn to sing in falsetto and fake it. Most of the time, I just bellow away because it is not the musicality of our worship that matters, it is the condition of our hearts. Blessings.
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Posted 07/09/2009 12:15pm
Author: arisensleeper
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thank you Doulos! If we are to talk about this issue, then talk about it... most women that have leadership positions in the church are fully aware of what they are doing and who they are doing it for, Deborah for example knew she was acting under the Lord's direction and she was fully prepared to do what He instructed her to... as we get into Judges 4 we see Deborah was staying within her role as Judge and how she had to alter it at another's behest- Judges 4:4-10 Did she want to? No, but she wanted the Lord's will to be done in totality. I wonder how many men were called by God to do something, anything, but for whatever reason, the man didn't answer, but a woman did...
Women serving is not new, look at Luke 8:3.
And lastly, most folk that worship, realize that God is a SPIRIT, Jesus Himself tells us so in John 4:23
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Posted 07/09/2009 12:31pm
Author: blackrose65
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LOL, brave is not the most correct word to describe my attitude ... I have been called many other things ... a moose bellowing in the tranquil silence of the forest is one, others are not as flattering. Point is, we go to worship ... "to make a joyful noise unto the Lord" ... hee hee the last time a checked noise and music are very distant cousins.
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Posted 07/09/2009 01:37pm
Author: arisensleeper
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Leave it to Gracie to take another rabbit trail.
I have several girlfriends who tell me from personal experience that men abdicating their leadership role is prevalent in the African-American community and my friends are left to do what needs to be done.
That remark is not intended as a racial or a gender comment, I am telling you what they told me, but I think I'm agreeing with the blog writer and the most of the comments here.
But what really concerns me is that the PASTOR and the WORSHIP LEADER don't know what the lyrics are and don't care and don't pay attention????
They will be accountable to a Holy God as the leaders of that church. Ignorance is not bliss.
Great discussion! I love this post.
-- side note: Is your name "old's cool" like you're old and it's cool? Or "old scool", as in old-fashioned in thought?
Gracie
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Posted 07/09/2009 08:01pm
Author: savedbyegrace
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It's "Old's Cool", but with the double meaning of being an "Old School" kind of guy. Thanks for asking.
I'm glad you like the blog and comments. I think it's illustrative of a very real issue that will come to the front if and when the church falls on difficult times. It obviously hits a nerve for some and provides a vent for others.
I really think that the enemy has targeted men, causing them to disengage. And as I said, it's a chicken-vs-egg argument. The issues of the content of worship songs, or even the key they're sung in, are meerly symptoms of the deeper issue. Focusing solely on them is a bit of a distraction.
The question is, how did a faith, started by God/man Jesus, who called men as His disciples and commissioned them as apostles to build His church, come to be repellent to modern men?
I was going to address this. I was an inner-city high school teacher for years, and my experience leading Bible clubs made me aware of a prevalent view among black males that Christianity is a "woman's religion", whereas Islam is a "man's religion". Why? Because Islam challenges men to a struggle. This black man says it best -
Link to full article http://whoisakindele.info/2008/04/no-black-men-in-churchi-wonder-why-b y.html
His key quote
And..
Again, if it were any other demographic; women, children, minorities, even gays in some churches, would we be so dismissive of the problem or see it as all THEIR problem? I don't think so. We'd do what we could to bring them back to the fold.
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Posted 07/10/2009 12:38pm
Author: oldscool
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another reason that many black men see Christianity as evil is because many Africans were enslaved by Christians, and for centuries thee were mistreated and abused by Christinans and instead of taking the time to read and study the bible to learn how God sees everyone, a large, and sadly growing number rebel against Christianity... especially of its' depictions of Jesus and His early disciples as oppressors, black women on the other hand, are encouraged to read, forced to be independent due to the lack of male role models and embrace Christianityonce they read and learn of His love... even those who were abused by men, of any color.
Blaick men have issues with reconciling being oppressed by people that claim to love them... I did too for a while.
Islam, does not allow for any representations of Mohammed or Allah, so it's easier to identify with someone you can't see... you can fill in the blank with whatever picture you want... furthermore, men and women worship separately in the mosque, mens' roles as warriors, and dominators is encouraged in Islam and wife beating is even permitted according to the Qu'aran. if you're a young man, desperate for SOME KIND of strong MALE role model, you will be drawn to Islam.
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Posted 07/10/2009 02:02pm
Author: blackrose65
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Thank you, blackrose. As you mention blacks resenting Christianity for enslaving their ancestors, I can't help but ask why there's not a similar resentment towards Islam? Historically, many more blacks were enslaved by Muslims throughout the world. And didn't the slaves themselves embrace the Christianity of their masters?
I only ask this to suggest the importance of challenging men (black, white, brown, yellow, or otherwise) and giving them a mission to save souls and break down the Gates Of Hell, engaging them enough to where they wouldn't focus on the past sins of the Church, but commit strongly to it's mission. Isn't that what Islam has done?
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Posted 07/10/2009 02:54pm
Author: oldscool
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because, Islam doesn't make much noise about its' own mistakes... Islam still enslaves its' enemies today... just look in the sudan... and the many virulent and violent sects of Islam are really good at holding a grudge. It's been my personal experience that I had to 'get over' the whole christianity and slavery thing, and it was easy to do once I started reading church history, and learning that just as there were ignorant hypocrites professing Christianity and enslaving others, there were the true Christians fighting for, and ultimately bringing freedom to those once enslaved. There are other bitter pills involved in blacks accepting christianity, such as the forcible founding of the AME church because blacks weren't allowed to worship with whites, secreated churches through out the country- even today... and the woeful ignorance of the work and service of great men like William Seymour, the lightning rod for the Azusa Street revival of 1906
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Posted 07/10/2009 04:21pm
Author: blackrose65
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Blessings to you, alight, and good work in Africa. Praise God for saved souls!
I think I do understand why 'Jesus lovers' do what they do, as I've seen this phenomenon grow over the years now.
First off, the Church is Jesus' bride, not individual believers. Husbands are to love their wives as Christ loves His Church, but nowhere that I can see are we commanded to love Him as a wife lives her husband. We're to see Him as Father, not a lover in the physical sense.
And I'm going to say something radical here; God does not want a 'personal relationship' with you! It's not in the Bible. Anywhere. He wants us to turn to Him for salvation, He wants us to grow in knowledge of Him and commitment to Him, He wants to renew our hearts and minds, but it's all about, and for, Him. The feminization of the Church, and in my view the weakening of it, started when this phrase became prevalent in evangelicalism.
In John 15, Jesus goes into fairly extensive detail on what it means to love Him, and it's pretty clear that loving Him involves obedience, not emotion. And it's for His glory, not our fulfillment and
In fact, it implies that if your not obeying God's commands, your useless and to be discarded
That doesn't sound like the typical 'personal relationship' we think of today.
Unbridled emotion, or passion if you will, has been a very destructive force in Church history. Jesus didn't model it, Paul didn't stress it. Quite the opposite, actually. He said we are to be transformed by the renewing of our minds to find out HIS will (Romans 12:2).
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Posted 07/12/2009 05:33am
Author: oldscool
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oldscool...I disagree...God does desire a close personal relationship with each of us individually...we may not desire one that close with him...but that doesn't change his desire...I'll bring this up with Him later when we sit down and have our one-on-one quiet time together. If you want a seriously intimate personal relationship with God, then ask for it and set the time aside to develop it.
PapaBear
PS...my apologies to the blog author for the sidenote to a specific commentor.
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Posted 07/16/2009 06:43am
Author: greybear
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(lol-humility is a tough pill some days)...second apology to oldscool as you are the author...I didn't scroll up far enough...
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Posted 07/16/2009 06:47am
Author: greybear
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Not a problem Greybear. You disagreed earlier, too. Which I don't mind, but please, if you disagree, tell me where my reasoning is flawed, or my reading of scripture is wrong.
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Posted 07/16/2009 07:05am
Author: oldscool
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I continue to follow this blog with interest. It has meandered from the "feminization" of the church, to emotionalism in worship, to ethnic issues, to the "cowardice" of pastors succumbing to the pressures of this age. It seems to me however that we have tiptoed around the real issue. The role of men and their response to Biblical edicts and commands to lead! In my previous comment, quite I while back, I mentioned this but with the exception of a few, it seems that we have neatly skirted the cause of the problems preferring to comment on the symptoms.
I made a comment in the Group "Band of Spiritual Brothers" in an attempt to urge my brothers in Christ "awaken" (as per my namesake) and now feel compelled to post an excerpt of it here:
Quoting Scripture to support the Biblical role of men in the Church may be theologically and doctrinally correct, but living it is quite a different matter.
I write thus because I agree with oldscool and others who rightly lament the diminished AND diminishing role of men in the Church. Neither is the intent to make light of the considerable contributions that my sisters in Christ have made in place of the vacuum we have left, nor is it to argue that women should or should not lead -- the fact is that in Biblical history and in the present age -- they have. I write this because if one is to chastise and rebuke, one should first of all do so correctly in humility and love and ensure that these are directed to the cause and not the symptom. Moreover, chastisement and rebuke without teaching, exhortation, and edification is only prideful utterance. In this spirit, I urge my brothers in Christ to look first to ourselves, to encourage the brothers in our own local churches to rise up as the men of God His Word intended, teaching, disciplining, and encouraging where there is lack (which is suspect is great). Moreover, at the risk of offense and being labeled a heretic, I urge this too of my sisters in Christ to help restore unto the Church here in the West to the image of the Bride of our Arisen and Living Savior willed by our Lord. I also urge us that as we do so, to consider our words in Christian discourse making sure that we sow unity and love, build up and edify.
In His Name,
Arisen
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Posted 07/16/2009 10:00am
Author: arisensleeper
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Well said Arisen. We cannot have a relationship with God if we are in disobedience or unfruitfulness. His love demands our obedience.
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Posted 07/16/2009 11:48am
Author: debradoo
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Thanks for joining in annajones.
I'm afraid it's not enough to just "love Him with all we have", if our view of Him is not accurate nor found in the Word. We are to worship in the Spirit (one of it's fruits being self-control) and Truth. Please know that God expects more than just emotional praise and worship, important as they are. He expects us to know Him, and our most important worship is our obedience to His commands.
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Posted 07/23/2009 04:07pm
Author: oldscool
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oldscool,
I would encourage you to set aside all the reasoning and proving and disproving and take personal time with the Lord. Laugh when you speak with him, cry when you plead with him, be quiet when you listen with him, and sing as loud as you can when your heart is filled with him...these are what give us that personal relationship with him.
Our study is of him, our debates are about him, and our love is for him, but our close personal relationship is with him.
Give it a shot. I can't promise it won't hurt because when you finally let him be a personal God and Lord, he is no longer at arms length and he will begin the change your heart, your soul, and your mind.
Blessing,
PapaBear
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Posted 08/07/2009 06:31am
Author: greybear
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oldscool...I have no idea how to follow the thread of this blog, but it certainly has been a good conversation place...
yea John...we finally have a male that can sing singing lead in the worship time. he has a mid range voice and isn't afraid to get down there with the old men and beller out some low range notes, lol
I get the elbow from my wife on occasion when I get to loud because I can't sing and I have a low, growly, monotone voice. and for the record I have never had someone say they enjoyed my singing when we stop to "greet those around you", but it gives me great joy to close my eyes and envision myself singing in a great multitude before the throne of our Lord with every bit of zeal I have within my heart!!
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Posted 08/07/2009 06:48am
Author: greybear
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How my previous comment on this was objectionable, I have no idea. But if it was, I certainly apologize.
Let me say this. This blog was posted in the "Politics and Society" section. It has to do with the body of Christ and how we corporately view and worship God, and how that will affect our message to the world and our response to persecutions. If you wish to personalize with this kind of encouragement, that's fine. But if you presume to know my heart and offer a challenge to my personal devotions, please be willing to graciously accept one in return. And please respect my request to cite scripture.
If not, please, as John Abela said above, move on.
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Posted 08/10/2009 10:01am
Author: oldscool
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No apologies necessary nor anticipated. I would not presume to know anyone's heart, but my own. You don't find a personal relationship in a "scripture" you find it in practice. That is from my heart and shared with yours. "I think all this learning has made you mad"...personally, I can study the cover off the scriptures and know them, but without quiet personal time with the Lord, they take only meaning under my understanding and not under his. I lean not on my own understanding... .
(See Gen 1:1 through Rev 22:21, now we've covered it all)
PapaBear
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Posted 08/10/2009 01:11pm
Author: greybear
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Well, at least you cited scripture BTW, Paul's learning didn't make him mad;
I would pretty much agree with what you're saying ...it's not what this blog was about, but it's pretty right on... and I'm still not sure what I said before that caused complaint Oh, well.
My final word on this blog is that the entirety of the comments pretty much confirm my argument. So many have missed the point due to emotional reading and reacting, one of the consequences of feminizing and emotionalizing faith.
Blessings
Old'scool
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Posted 08/10/2009 02:00pm
Author: oldscool
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Log Into Chatroom 
God Bless you all... I've been gone and man was this a 