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Very interesting blog. I had a friend of mine say this idea to me and I have never thought of it before, it was that eternal death meant death. They were simply gone for ever. They would go to the judgement seat of Christ and were convicted and then die for ever.
To me this idea just doesn't seem to line up with Scripture very much. But I was wondering what you thought of this idea? The only reason this idea is making me think is because we do have a loving hell and I guess it seems like eternal damnation is too harsh. I don't know...
Good to see a blog by you!
YSIC,
-Golden 
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Posted 03/04/2009 03:19pm
Author: youaregolden
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tchable, in this blog you say,
"It seems to me those who do not believe there is an eternal hell share their beliefs based on scripture taken out context or with words cleverly changed which have the effect of changing what the Word is saying.
I agree that with the verses and notes that you supply this sounds like an open and shut case.
However I have come to a different conclusion. In my study I include all of the verses I could find, including the ones above.
If you get a chance please read my blogs titled, "Death, Souls, Spirits, and Hell fire," parts 1&2
and then tell me which scriptures I have taken out of context, and which words I have cleverly changed.
God's Blessings, Vance
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Posted 03/04/2009 10:17pm
Author: disciplevance
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tchable, in your blog you say; "the words everlasting (used with punishment) and eternal (used with life) both in the original is "aionios" which means perpetual, eternal, everlasting, for ever.
You are correct, however in Jude 1:7 (The word 'eternal' also comes from "aionios" and obviously Sodom and Gamorrah are not still burning.)
Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
166. aionios ahee-o'-nee-os from 165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):--eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
(aionios #166 comes from aion #165)
165. aion ahee-ohn' from the same as 104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):--age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end). Compare 5550.
(and #166 aion, comes from aei ah-eye #104)
104. aei ah-eye' from an obsolete primary noun (apparently meaning continued duration); "ever,"by qualification regularly; by implication, earnestly; --always, ever.
(Plus #165 says to also compare #5550)
5550. chronos khron'-os of uncertain derivation; a space of time (in general, and thus properly distinguished from 2540, which designates a fixed or special occasion; and from 165, which denotes a particular period) or interval; by extension, an individual opportunity; by implication, delay:--+ years old, season, space, (X often-)time(-s), (a) while.
(#165 says 'an age,' and course, besides eternal, - - - #104 besides always and ever, says 'continued duration,' - - - and #5550 says a space of time.)
There are several verses that use the word unquenchable, so my best guess is that the "eternal" fire that burned Sodom and Gamorrah was an unquenchable fire that burned for an age, a space of time, a duration, or until it completed its course. i.e. until there was no longer any fuel.
For more detail on this subject, please take the time to read my blogs, mentioned above. Thank you, Vance.
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Posted 03/05/2009 10:44am
Author: disciplevance
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Brother Vance . . . Thank you for addressing my view in this matter and be sure I appreciate yours as well. One thing I'm sure all of us can agree on is there is no eternal hell for the redeemed (Praise God).
Perspective . . . I'm not sure I know where you are trying to go with this. It seems to me all you have asked is already answered in the blog. However, I will attempt to add more clarity in what I believe the answers to your questions are.
First off my understanding of spiritual life and spiritual death is spiritual life is life with God while spiritual death is life separated from God. I believe once God breathes spirit into man this spirit will never cease to exist. Therefore, spiritual death is not a discontinuance of existence but being separated from God.
Physical death is an absence of the spirit within man (James 2:26).
Perspective asked:
"One question, among several I may have, is if "the spirit comes from God and is the life of man," and "God is eternal" is it possible for God to die? Now if you say, "Of course, did not Jesus die?" Then I must ask, "Did He die spiritually?" Now if you say, "No," then I must ask, "What death did Jesus die?" For in that He did, I believe, and I know that you do as well!"
My reply: Jesus died on the cross both physically and spiritually. Jesus came to earth in the same body we live in. He was made a little lower than the angels for the purpose of suffering death for us. He died spiritually on the cross in that God did turn away from Him. This is why Jesus said: "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" (Matt 27:46) However His spirit did not cease existing as is evidence by Luke 23:46. When His spirit left His body is when He suffered physical death.
Jesus came in the form of man and had limitations just like man. He was not all knowing while in His earthly ministry as evidenced by Mark 13:32. It seems He was surprised when God turned His back on Him. This had to happen or the wages for our sin could not have been paid. The wages of our sin includes spiritual death (separation from God).
Perspective asked:
"We may say He died physically. However, the limit of such death provides nothing I, or you, won't do ourselves. And so you aptly pointed out, "Physically he (Adam) lived on suffering slow physical corruption until." Did Jesus' physical death therefore provide spiritual life?"
My reply: We are already dead in our sins if we have not accepted Jesus as our personal savior. This means we are spiritually dead (not in fellowship with God). Eventually, less the Lord comes first, we will all suffer physical death and go to our graves. At the time of our salvation we are made spiritually alive (returned to fellowship with God). However, we are still mortal. Our bodies do not receive eternal life until the day of redemption which is the day of our Resurrection (Romans 8:23). The entire work had to be accomplished. Jesus had to die on the cross, Jesus had to be buried, and Jesus had to be resurrected. Our faith in what Jesus did for us brings us eternal life in Him. If Jesus had not arose there would be no hope for any of us.
Perspective asked:
Finally, is it possible to die spiritually once you possess spiritual life? I am not splitting hairs, but attempting to identify your position.
I'm not sure what you are asking here. If you are asking if it is possible for one to fall from grace once they have been saved my response is I believe so. Paul tells the Galatians if they return to trying to be justified by the law they have fallen from grace (Gal 5:4). Now it would seem it would be impossible to fall from grace if you were never in grace. In addition why would Heb 6:4-6 even be in the Word if it is impossible to fall from grace? There are many other places in Scripture where this is addressed as well.
I hope this clarifies what I believe is true concerning these things.
Blessings,
Tch
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Posted 03/05/2009 11:34am
Author: tchable
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Brother Vance . . . Thank you for addressing my view in this matter and be sure I appreciate yours as well. One thing I'm sure all of us can agree on is there is no eternal hell for the redeemed (Praise God).
Perspective . . . I'm not sure I know where you are trying to go with this. It seems to me all you have asked is already answered in the blog. However, I will attempt to add more clarity in what I believe the answers to your questions are.
First off my understanding of spiritual life and spiritual death is spiritual life is life with God while spiritual death is life separated from God. I believe once God breathes spirit into man this spirit will never cease to exist. Therefore, spiritual death is not a discontinuance of existence but being separated from God.
Physical death is an absence of the spirit within man (James 2:26).
Perspective asked:
"One question, among several I may have, is if "the spirit comes from God and is the life of man," and "God is eternal" is it possible for God to die? Now if you say, "Of course, did not Jesus die?" Then I must ask, "Did He die spiritually?" Now if you say, "No," then I must ask, "What death did Jesus die?" For in that He did, I believe, and I know that you do as well!"
My reply: Jesus died on the cross both physically and spiritually. Jesus came to earth in the same body we live in. He was made a little lower than the angels for the purpose of suffering death for us. He died spiritually on the cross in that God did turn away from Him. This is why Jesus said: "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" (Matt 27:46) However His spirit did not cease existing as is evidence by Luke 23:46. When His spirit left His body is when He suffered physical death.
Jesus came in the form of man and had limitations just like man. He was not all knowing while in His earthly ministry as evidenced by Mark 13:32. It seems He was surprised when God turned His back on Him. This had to happen or the wages for our sin could not have been paid. The wages of our sin includes spiritual death (separation from God).
Perspective asked:
"We may say He died physically. However, the limit of such death provides nothing I, or you, won't do ourselves. And so you aptly pointed out, "Physically he (Adam) lived on suffering slow physical corruption until." Did Jesus' physical death therefore provide spiritual life?"
My reply: We are already dead in our sins if we have not accepted Jesus as our personal savior. This means we are spiritually dead (not in fellowship with God). Eventually, less the Lord comes first, we will all suffer physical death and go to our graves. At the time of our salvation we are made spiritually alive (returned to fellowship with God). However, we are still mortal. Our bodies do not receive eternal life until the day of redemption which is the day of our Resurrection (Romans 8:23). The entire work had to be accomplished. Jesus had to die on the cross, Jesus had to be buried, and Jesus had to be resurrected. Our faith in what Jesus did for us brings us eternal life in Him. If Jesus had not arose there would be no hope for any of us.
Perspective asked:
Finally, is it possible to die spiritually once you possess spiritual life? I am not splitting hairs, but attempting to identify your position.
I'm not sure what you are asking here. If you are asking if it is possible for one to fall from grace once they have been saved my response is I believe so. Paul tells the Galatians if they return to trying to be justified by the law they have fallen from grace (Gal 5:4). Now it would seem it would be impossible to fall from grace if you were never in grace. In addition why would Heb 6:4-6 even be in the Word if it is impossible to fall from grace? There are many other places in Scripture where this is addressed as well.
I hope this clarifies what I believe is true concerning these things.
Blessings,
Tch
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Posted 03/05/2009 11:37am
Author: tchable
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Brother Vance . . . as far as the part of the earth were Sodom and Gomorrah existed I have no idea if it is still burning. However, I believe the verse Jude 1:7 is speaking of the population of these cities.
Blessings from NC
Tch
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Posted 03/05/2009 11:47am
Author: tchable
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If the place where Sodom and Gomorrah existed was still burning everyone would know. Anyone who didn't know for sure could go to Google Earth and see for themselves.
Your study is good as far as it goes, but according to the verses in my study the idea of an actual place, 'eternal hell,' is a satanic lie. A very popular one but un-true.
I would love to share a more loving version of God with you, (a God of Love who does not torture) but if you don't have the time or the will to read, 'the rest of the story,' then so be it.
God Bless, Vance
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Posted 03/05/2009 06:08pm
Author: disciplevance
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Sister Samantha . . . Thank you for your kind words. I have been having serious health problems for a long time and just lately have been feeling well enough to begin writing again. I praise God for my recovery and allowing me to return to my family here at CB.
Sister Golden Said: " . . . had a friend of mine say this idea to me and I have never thought of it before, it was that eternal death meant death. They were simply gone for ever. They would go to the judgement seat of Christ and were convicted and then die for ever."
Reply: There are many who do not believe there is an eternal hell. If you want to know more about this teaching, and wish to find the information here on CB, I suggest you read DiscipleVance's blogs on the subject.
Sister Golden Said: "To me this idea just doesn't seem to line up with Scripture very much. But I was wondering what you thought of this idea? The only reason this idea is making me think is because we do have a loving hell and I guess it seems like eternal damnation is too harsh. I don't know..."
Reply: You are certainly correct. We do have a loving heavenly Father Who does not desire that any man should perish (2 Peter 3:9). He loves us so much He gave us free will so we can choose who we will serve (Joshua 24:15). Our heavenly Father did not create the Lake of Fire for mankind. He prepared it for the devil and his angels (Matt 25:41). Who ever man chooses to serve while man is in this flesh body is who man will serve in eternity. There are only two choices, our heavenly Father or the god of this world (John 14:30 and 2 Cor 4:4). If man chooses to serve our heavenly Father then he will be in eternity with our heavenly father in New Jerusalem when the heavenly city descends to the New Earth (Rev 21:1-4). If man chooses to reject the free gift of salvation then he will be with the god of this world in eternity which is the Lake of Fire (Rev 20:10-15).
God's desire is that we have eternal life with Him. It is a free gift! We only have to choose to serve Him through Jesus Christ, His only begotten Son and our Lord and Savior.
The choice is man's.
Sister Samantha, you are always a blessing. Thank you so much for your contribution.
In Jesus in NC
Tch
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Posted 03/05/2009 08:41pm
Author: tchable
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Brother tchable,
Because of the extreme interest i have in the many intersecting themes in this blog and comments, i read everything with a critical pen in hand. I would have amened you straight up but for your take on Rev. 20:14-15 which will send me to my studies.
One thing that caught my attention was that their was no comment on 'soul' except in the verses themselves that were used; however, i realized that that was not the subject matter and all that was said about spirit worked well.
In my opinion, you made your point and made it well.
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Posted 03/06/2009 09:55am
Author: bimonics
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especially for bimonics, here is a Bible verse about the 'soul.'
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him (I believe this refers to God) which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
God's Blessings, all, Vance
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Posted 03/06/2009 02:43pm
Author: disciplevance
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Brother PK . . . Thank you brother for sharing with us your revelation of the message in this Scripture. You are highly appreciated. Blessings from NC.
Brother Bimonics . . . Thank you brother for your kind and encouraging words. If you will, please share with us the revelation you receive in your study of Rev 20:14-15.
I stayed away, as much as possible, from mentioning the soul of man because I was concerned that would open up a whole new can of worms. Maybe some day I'll open that can. Or maybe you will. If you do I'll be looking very forward to gleaning revelation from your presentation. As for now I think it sufficient to say in the end our soul will be where our spirit and resurrected body is.
Blessings from NC
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Posted 03/06/2009 02:43pm
Author: tchable
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I've been pondering that statement: "The teaching of there being an eternal hell is a satanic lie?" The logic of it just does not register for me. Why would the teaching of eternal punishment be a lie from satan? . Just seems to me teaching there is an eternal hell would be counterproductive for the evil one. If this is true maybe he is attempting to rebuke Jude 1:23.
Anyhow, seems satan teaching there is a place of eternal punishment would be a division in his house. A house divided cannot stand.
There is an eternal hell but praise God, the redeemed will never partake of it.
Loving Jesus,
LW
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Posted 03/07/2009 04:26am
Author: literalword
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Tchble said, "...hell is "hades" which is the grave. Death (no one will ever die again) and the grave (no one will ever be in a grave again) were cast into the Lake of Fire."
Although this is may ultimately be true and 'hades' is translated 'grave' 1 of 11 times in (KJV); overall Biblical collusion indicates that 'hell' (shoel-hades) is not the grave (qeber-mnaymion).
Hell is never the place of the body and the grave is never the place of the soul. (Ex. Ps. 16:10; Ezek. 31:16; Luke 11:44).
This detail does not affect the main argument, however it did set off a feeling that something was not quite right (ever have that happen?). Thanks for your invitation to share my findings.
I do have a response toward heaven over Rev. 20:11-15. Oh my God, Deliverer, and Saviour - how dumbfounded i am by what You have revealed here! How exact are Your statements and exact Your knowledge of things that we would otherwise not be able to even imagine. Who but You could know the relation and timing of these things one with the other and speak of them in absolute terms and without hesitation (verifying their truth). Have mercy on my soul and help me find an ink for my name in the book that is not a disappearing ink or illusion this side of that day.
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Posted 03/07/2009 09:40am
Author: bimonics
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Brother Bimonics . . . I'm taking a serious look into what you said. It seems you may be correct in the terminology. The soul is never in the grave and I know that. Therefore, if I phrased it wrong (which it is appearing I did) then the correct rendering would be:
Death (no one will ever die again) and Hades (the current place of departed souls) were thrown into the Lake of Fire. I may need to leave the word "grave" out of it completely which will change nothing since "death" covers that any way. There will never be a need for a grave again.
*** Hades is the temporary place of departed souls
*** The Lake of Fire is the eternal place of the devil, his angels, and the unbelieving.
I'm looking deeper into this however I do thank you for not letting it get by you. In addition, you are correct, even if the terminology needs to be changed the final condition will remain the same.
Once again . . . Thank you my brother.
Blessings from NC,
Tch
PS: This is why I chose the nick name Tchable. I am called and anointed to teach and full capable of being taught. Truth and accuracy in His Word is paramount to me.
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Posted 03/07/2009 10:45am
Author: tchable
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Gentlemen,
I have hesitated to comment because y'all are more learned than I am and are taking a more scholarly approach to the question. So please take my opinion as being entirely unscholarly from a book sense, but makes (in my mind anyway) logical sense.
Were there no eternal condemnation and no eternal physical hell, why would Jesus have had to go to such a horrid extreme to save us from it? It must be true.
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Posted 03/08/2009 05:03pm
Author: savedbyegrace
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savedbyegrace, you ask; "Were there no eternal condemnation and no eternal physical hell, why would Jesus have had to go to such a horrid extreme to save us from it? It must be true."
Please re-read John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jesus came to save us from our sins, - - - so we would not 'PERISH,' - - - so we could have everlasting life, - - - live forever with Him.
That is why they call Him our Saviour. Apparently He would rather die than live without us.
bimonics, you say; "Hell is never the place of the body" If this is true how do you explain this verse? Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him (I believe this refers to God) which is able to destroy both soul and BODY in hell.
literalword, you ask; "Why would the teaching of eternal punishment be a lie from satan?" Satan would love for us to think he is the good guy and God is the bad guy, please tell me how anyone could be more evil than a god who would sustain the life of someone burning in a lake of fire, forever and forever?
I have some honest hearted athiest friends who say they could never ever worship a sadistic god like that. When they hear Christians say this kind of god is a God of Love, they laugh out loud. Wouldn't that make Satan happy?
You would probably say, "there has to be a 'place' for the wicked, because the soul is immortal", but Revelation 20:11, says; - - "and there was found no PLACE for them", and I believe that the immortatality of the soul is another satanic lie, and this lie is recorded in the Bible. Genesis 3:4
Please read my blogs titled, "Death, Souls, Spirits, and Hell fire," parts 1&2, and then tell me where I 'go wrong.'
I certainly do not mean to be arguementive, I just feel strongly about this subject.
God's Blessings, Vance
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Posted 03/08/2009 11:18pm
Author: disciplevance
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Good eye vance with regard to the few statements i have made,
I forgot to include the exception clause; 'Hell is never the place of the body' except after the resurrection and judgment of the wicked.
...and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them (along with their bodies from the grave - resurrection of the wicked): and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
like the old Bourbon Street Preacher used to say; "If your born once - you die twice, but if your born twice you only die once (and not even then if you are alive at the time of the resurrection of the righteous!)".
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Posted 03/09/2009 12:27am
Author: bimonics
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It seems someone, instead of agreeing with their atheist friends, needs to teach them of the Love of God and the Truth of His Grace and desire that no man should perish but all have everlasting life.
We speak of satanic lies and what could be more of a satanic lie than there is no God. There is a Loving God whose eternal home is Heaven and there is a deceiving devil whose eternal home is the lake of fire.
There is really no need for a lengthy theological discourse on this. Man chooses for himself who he will serve. The man who serves God will have eternal life with God in heaven. The man who serves the devil will have eternity in the lake of fire with him.
And that is the rest of the story. The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
In Jesus,
LW
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Posted 03/09/2009 08:25am
Author: literalword
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We all feel strongly about what we believe to be true. In discussing our differing understanding of issues we really need first of all to be sure we honor the admonition of Paul in 2 Cor 13:11. It is true none of us are perfect in understanding. We can glean from each other by researching for ourselves and allowing the Holy Spirit to teach us.
Let us all bask in the love of Jesus!
Love and blessings from NC,
Tch
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Posted 03/09/2009 10:42am
Author: tchable
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disciplevance -- Because I disagree with you, I want you to know that I do not just jump in and start commenting. I took the time to read the two blogs you posted of your beliefs about hell and which you recommended that others read first.
You refer to Revelation 20:11: "And there was found no PLACE for them", and then say that you "believe that the immortality of the soul is another satanic lie, and this lie is recorded in the Bible (Genesis 3:4)."
In my response, the Rev. 20:11 reference is taken first. This refers not to a lack of dwelling place for the human soul but to there being no longer a place for heaven and earth as the dwelling place of human souls. Here, Scripture is revealing the new order of things that will come about at the end of all things.
God alone existed from all eternity, then he created a spiritual realm of spirit beings, then he created a material or physical realm for us human souls to inhabit (Is. 45:18).
But this physical realm is not meant to be our eternal place of abode; heaven is. Scripture makes it clear that this world will not last forever; a new world is coming that will replace this present world. In this new world, the perfections of God will replace the imperfections of this present world. There will be no room, no place, for the old order of sin and evil and any will other than God's will. That is what is meant by the Rev. 20:11 reference, not that there will be no place for the human soul at all, only that that place of existence will no longer be this present earth (1 Cor. 7:31).
This applies to the unbelieving soul destined for hell as well as the believing soul destined for heaven. This Rev. reference is not saying that there will be no place for either, only that for both their place of existence will no longer be this earth, for that earth is destined to disappear. That the souls themselves will not disappear, however, is also stated in Scripture, which brings me to the second reference you stated, Gen. 3:4.
Rather than go into a discussion on our differing views on that verse, I would like to focus on the differences that lay behind the way it is interpreted, differences about the immortality of the human soul. It is only partially correct in saying that man is not immortal. If one means by immortal that a being has existed from all eternity, then obviously man is not immortal; God is then the only immortal being.
I agree that man is not immortal in the sense that he has always existed; our difference lies in whether or not that soul, once created by God, continues to exist for eternity. You say it does not (at least for the wicked, if I understand you correctly), and I say it does, because, I believe, Scripture says it does.
One such Scripture says that "everything God does will endure forever" (Eccl. 3:14). We are the workmanship of God (Eph. 2:10) and what God creates lasts forever. It cannot be destroyed because its source is the eternal One and what flows from him lasts forever because the source from which it was made is eternal and that which is created partakes of the nature of that source. The human soul, being a creation of the eternal One, thus cannot be destroyed but will exist forever--once it is created.
You mentioned, correctly, that when Matt. 10:28 mentions the destruction of the soul, that it is referring to God's ability to do this, for he is the only one with that power. But, again, we must be careful in assuming something not warranted by the use of a word. Here, the meaning of the word destroy must be in accord with other Scriptures that speak of the final fate of human souls who refuse to submit to Christ as Lord. You believe (as best I can determine) that those other Scriptures say those wicked souls are annihilated, cease to exist; I do not believe that they teach this, but, again, I do not want to launch into a defense of this belief right here, but just note that this verse does not imply or mean annihilation.
What, then, does it mean? I have posted a blog entitled "Does God Use Black Holes as Warnings of Hell?", the link for which is below.
[url=http://www.christianblog.com/blog/wisdomsfriend/does-god-use-blac k-holes-to-warn-about-hell/]
In this blog, I state my belief that hell is a place so cut off from all else that exists that it is impossible for us as human beings to comprehend its isolation. But God has created black holes in our universe that illustrate some aspects of this complete separation of hell: a physical object in the material realm to help us realize the utter isolation of hell from all else that exists.
I also comment on your mention of atheists you know who are repelled by Christians' description of God as a loving God because they insist on the existence of an eternal hell where people suffer for ever, those atheists describing God as sadistic.
This is another example of people having differing definitions of words (like love), and those differences leading to confusion and lack of communication. Love is utterly impossible without free will. The definition of love demands that it be freely given; without that freedom of will, love cannot exist.
What those such as the ones you describe fail to realize is the true nature of the incredible freedom God has given us. Constantly we hear from those who do not want to submit to God that they want to be free from all influence of him in their lives; they want no part whatsoever of God. Why doesn't he just leave them alone? They do not realize what they are asking. Neither do they realize the incredible freedom they have. God has given them the freedom to reject him. He will not rule over them unless they want him to. That is freedom beyond comparison or even imagining. They have the very freedom they insist upon.
But what they do not understand is that such freedom from God is not freedom at all but imprisonment. True love (God) does not want man imprisoned. Man cannot live without God, cannot even exist (Heb. 1:3) without his sustaining power. Yet, despite this impossibility, there is a place in which this takes place. In hell, the wicked, rebellious souls continue to exist, forever, despite the fact that they are utterly cut off (2 Ths. 1: 8, 9).
To exist completely apart from God, as in hell--that is something so far beyond our comprehension that we struggle even to think of it. It is a dimensionality beyond all dimensions of the physical universe with which we are familiar. Yet it is so.
And, finally, I do want to address your belief in soul sleep, to which I am strongly opposed. Jesus' reply to the Sadducees, who did not believe in a resurrection (Mt. 22:31, 32), and the events when Jesus was on the Mount of Transfiguration, when souls who had died appeared alive, (Mt. 17:3) should lay this belief to rest (pun intended).
My thanks to all who comment here. We may differ, or agree, on some points, but we are united as one in Christ.
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Posted 03/09/2009 10:57am
Author: wisdomsfriend
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literalword, tchable's original question was; "Is There evidence of an Eternal Hell?" (By the way I appreciate the question mark)
I would say, "Yes, there certainly seems to be, and tchable has presented his evidence quite well, but he has only presented one side of the story, and not the whole truth.'
Just in case you are asking yourself, "Why won't disciplevance, just go away and leave us alone?"
Here is why, to me it is like we are all in a burning building and Satan (the father of lies, John 8:44) has shouted, "Someone call the fire department, dial 711." And I just happen to know the correct number is 911, what kind of person would I be if I kept quiet?
I have no personal problem with tchable, in fact I consider him to be a brother in Christ, but obviously he has pushed one of my buttons when he asked this question, and I'm sorry, I could never go back to trying to worship and love the god of eternal punishment.
If you have your mind made up, then just ignore the following Bible verses, but if you are still studying this subject (as am I) then I present these Bible verses and notes for your consideration.
SOULS, MORTAL OR IMMORTAL?
The key to the question of the immortality of souls lies in the true definition of a soul.
Genesis 2: 7,
The dust of the ground plus the breath of life equals a living soul. (It doesn't say man has a soul, it says man became [is] a living soul.) Some religions believe we are immortal souls that have always existed, even before we were born on earth, but the Bible says man became a living soul.
In Genesis 2:17, God told Adam, - - - eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
And in Ezekiel 18:4, the Bible says: "The soul that sinneth, it shall die."
In Romans 6:23, it says: " For the wages of sin is death."
Satan called God a liar, in Genesis 3:4, by saying: " Ye shall not surely die," thereby insinuating, Adam and Eve were immortal and could not die, but the Bible says only God is immortal, and that man is mortal.
1 Timothy 6:15,16, - - - Lord of lords, Who only hath immortality,
Job 4:17, - - mortal man
Romans 8:11, 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 - - this mortal must put on immortality.
Here are two verses that seem to say both the body and the soul are destroyed in Hell.
Matthew 10:28, Matthew 5:28,
THE STATE OF THE DEAD
The popular belief is that we go directly to heaven, hell or purgatory, when we die, but what does the Bible say?
Jesus calls the first death a sleep. In Matthew 9:24, John 11:11-14, John 11:43,44, Matthew 27:52,53, Psalms 13:3, Daniel 12:2, Psalms 17:15.
A DREAMLESS SLEEP
Psalms 146:3&4, Psalms 115:17, Psalms 6:5, Ecclesiastes 9:10, Psalms 31:17, Ecclesiastes 9:5, Job 30:23,24, Job 17:13.
Note: We won't be watching people on Earth.
Yes I know about the story Jesus told in Luke 16:19 through 31, about the rich man and Lazarus, where the rich man dies and from hell lifts up his eyes and sees Lazarus in Abraham's bosom. People go round and round about whether this was a true story or a parable. All I know is that Jesus told this story to make a point about eternal justice, and if we try to take this story literally it doesn't seem to fit with the rest of scripture.
2 Kings 22:20, 2 Chron 34:28.
Note: The Bible says those who sleep in their graves have not received the promise, and will not awake or be raised until the set time.
It also says King David is still in his sepulchre unto this day, and has not ascended to heaven.
Hebrews 11:39,40, Job 14:12&13, Acts 2:29-34, - - - David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. - - - For David is not ascended into the heavens:- - -
We are dust and spirit
John 6:63, Psalms 104:29&30, Ezekiel 37:14, Job 34:14,15, Ecclesiastes 12:7,
These verses seem to say the wicked will become as stubble/ashes and are destroyed/perish, forever.
John 3:16, Psalms 92:8,9, Luke 3:17, Zephaniah 1:18, Malachi 4:1, Malachi 4:3, Psalms 145:20, Psalms 37:20, Psalms 92:7, Isaiah 47:14, also says, " They shall be as stubble,- - -" and it implies that the fire goes out; " "- - - there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it."
These verses call the lake of fire the second death. Revelation 20:14,15, Revelation 2:11.
These verses in Ezekiel seem to be clearly speaking of the final destruction of Satan, the one who teaches the immortality of the soul and says, "Ye shall not surely die."
Ezekiel 28:14-19, - - - therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. - - - thou shalt be a terror, and NEVER shalt thou be any more.
RESURRECTION
1 Corinthians 15:16-27, - - - But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
Christ is called the firstfruits of them that slept. Christ who is our example slept in the grave and did not ascend to paradise until three days later. John 20:16,17, John 6:40, John 5:28&29.
All of the people in their graves hear his voice, just like Lazarus, and come forth.
Ezekiel 37:13,14, Psalms 49:14,15, 1 Corinthians 15:50.
Here is my summary of what I hear these verses saying; Man is dust plus spirit, he is a living soul, he does not have an immortal soul. Man is mortal, only God is immortal. Both body and soul of the wicked are destroyed in the lake of fire. Therefore, there can be no eternal hell. When we die we don't go anywhere immediately, we sleep a dreamless sleep in our grave until God at his set time resurrects us.
THIS IS ALL SPELLED OUT SO CLEARLY, SO WHY IS THERE SO MUCH CONFUSION?
Because there are several verses that seem to contradict what we have read so far.
In Luke 23:43, Jesus told the thief on the cross: " Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."
There were no punctuation marks in the original scrolls, the commas and periods were added at a later date, and could have been miss-placed. So some people say this verse should read, "Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with me in paradise." I know, that sounds weak to me too, but consider this, according to John, Jesus didn't go to paradise that day or the next, in fact three days later Jesus said he had not yet ascended to his Father.
John 20:16,17.
In 2 Corinthians 5:6, Paul says: " Knowing that whilst we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."
Paul is saying that if it was up to him, he would rather be present with the Lord. He's also clearly saying, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. People who think all believers go directly to heaven, read this verse to say, to be absent from the body is to be (instantly) with the Lord. It does sound like that's what it's implying, but that's not what he says. Either way, if we go there instantly, or wake up hundreds of years later, we won't know the difference until we ask someone what year it is.
THE SPIRIT RETURNS TO GOD
There are also several verses that speak of the spirit returning to God.
Ecclesiastes 12:7, Psalms 31:5, Acts 7:59, Luke 23:46, The Bible also says: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and several others: "Gave up the ghost," when they died.
WHAT IS THIS SPIRIT THAT RETURNS TO GOD?
Psalms 104:29&30, Genesis 2: 7, Job 34:14,15, John 6:63.
This is just about all the Bible has to say about our spirit, it sounds like the spirit is the breath of life, or the life force, however, I believe there's more to it than that, but to go any further I will need to share my personal opinion.
See what you think about this. Pretend we're a computer. First we're formed out of minerals taken from the Earth, (dust), then we receive our basic operating system and are plugged in, (breath of life.) Now were a useful computer, (a living soul.) Then we go through our life collecting various information which we store on our hard drive. Eventually we get old and clunkey, so our manufacturer uploads all of our information to the Internet and saves it until he has made us a new zippier model. Then he downloads the information saved on the Internet into the new model, (we're resurrected in our new body.)
God has an idea He calls you, then He converts energy into matter and forms the matter into a body. Then he breathes into that body the breath of life, and you become a living soul. When it's time to resurrect you, He could find all of the original atoms that made up your body if he wanted to, but I doubt if that's necessary, probably any old atoms will do.
You're an idea of God, made up of energy, information and life force, He can create you or re-create you any time he wants, without even looking at the plans. I believe that while you're resting in your grave, He literally holds in his mind the information that is you and your life's experiences, (your spirit.)
That's the best I can do with the information I have at this time, this is what seems to fit with the information I find in the Bible. I'm still studying this subject, please let me know what you think.
So what about eternal hell?
Doesn't the Bible speak about everlasting punishment, eternal damnation, and eternal judgment? Yes it sure seems to, here are the verses: Matthew 25:46, Mark 3:28, Hebrews 6:2,
However, in Jude 7, it says Sodom and Gomorrah suffered the vengeance of eternal fire, and obviously Sodom and Gomorrah are not still burning.
The word everlasting in Matthew 25:46, the word eternal in Mark 3:28, the word eternal in Hebrews 6:2, and the word eternal in Jude 7, were all translated from the same Greek word, aionios, #166, in Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionary, which means, eternity, age, (time period.) So this apparent contradiction is probably due to the way the word aionios was translated from the original Greek.
There are several verses that speak of an unquenchable fire, which I list below. My understanding is that when we combine the idea of unquenchable fire with the meaning of the word aionios, eternity, age, (time period), and the verses that say the wicked will be destroyed, consumed in the lake of fire, what this all adds up to is a fire that can not be put out. A fire that burns for an age, or time period, in other words for as long as it takes to complete it's task, until there is nothing left to burn. (Notice in this next verse, the fire goes out.) Isaiah 47:14.
UNQUENCHABLE FIRE
Matthew 3:12, Jeremiah 17:27, Mark 9:43-48, Ezekiel 20:47,48, Jeremiah 7:20, Isaiah 66:24, Luke 3:17, 2 Kings 22:17, 2 Chronicles 34:25.
WHEN JESUS RETURNS, WHO DOES HE BRING WITH HIM?
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Note: These verses are just confusing enough so that by emphasizing the part you like, you can read it just about any way you want. The people who believe we go directly to heaven love the line that says God will bring them with him. In fact at least one modern translation of the Bible says, "God will bring all of them that sleep in Jesus with him." Those who believe we sleep in the grave until resurrection day, point to the three times it says they're asleep.
My understanding is that Jesus took those who were resurrected at his death with him, when he ascended to heaven, and presented them to his Father as the wave sheaf offering mentioned in Leviticus 23. These people may also be the elders mentioned in Revelation 4:4, they may very well be those who come with him when he returns. I admit this is not clearly spelled out in the Bible, my plan is to wait and see on this one.
Isaiah 26:19, Matthew 27:50-53, Leviticus 23:9-20.
THE ALL CONSUMING FIRE OF GOD'S PRESENCE
Apparently the righteous (those wearing Christ's robe of righteousness, which must be fire proof,) find exceeding joy in the presence of God, but for anything that has anything to do with sin, His presence is an all consuming fire. The wicked are destroyed, and the elements of the earth and the heavens melt in his presence.
Jude 24,
2 Thessalonians 1:9,10, Psalms 9:3, Psalms 68:2, Psalms 68:8, Ezekiel 28:20, Nahum 1:5,
2 Peter 3:9,10, - - - the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2 Peter 3:12,13, Wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.
Revelation 6:15,16, And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man , hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains. And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the wrath of the Lamb.
Note: IT'S THE WRATH OF THE LAMB they're hiding from, not the wrath of an angry Lyon of Judah. Even in His wrath he comes in love, but for the wicked to look upon the face of Jesus and see the fullness of his Innocence and Holiness and Love, and to be simultaneously fully aware of their sinfulness, causes them to go into psychological melt down. For them His presence is a consuming fire.
In the final chapter there seems to be fire coming from everywhere, in my understanding there are two kinds of fire, the all consuming fire of His presence, and the unquenchable cleansing fire that burns the elements and the atmosphere just before the creation of the new heavens and new earth. In Ezekiel 28 it says fire comes from the midst of Satan. In Luke 17, it says fire and brimstone will come from heaven just like in Sodom. In Revelation 20, it says fire comes down from God out of heaven to devour them. In 2 Peter 3, the heavens are on fire and the elements melt with fervent heat, and in Revelation 20, it says earth and heaven flee from his face. However, nowhere in the Bible does it say anything at all about any of the wicked surviving this holocaust. In fact in Revelation 20:11, it says, "and there was found no place for them."
Ezekiel 28:18, Luke 17:29,30, Revelation 20:9, 2 Peter 3:12,13,
WHY IS THIS STUDY SO IMPORTANT
If there were eternal souls and/or disembodied spirits that exist consciously without their bodies, besides supporting the lie of eternal hell, that would also open the door to all sorts of spiritualism, like channeling, ghosts, seances, astral projections, near death experiences, and apparitions of Mother Mary, or some dearly departed loved one.
If we know the truth, (that dead people are really dead/asleep in their graves), we're not so easily fooled by these tricks of Satan and his evil angels.
Finally let's apply a little logic; God is a God of reason, Isaiah 1:18.
Why didn't any of the people Jesus resurrected complain about having to come back to earth?
If dead people have already been residing consciously as spirits in heaven or hell for hundreds and even perhaps thousands of years, what possible meaning would there be to a day of judgement at the second coming?
Why would God bring people back to earth to be resurrected? To get their old corruptible bodies, when they've supposedly gotten along just fine without their bodies for hundreds and hundreds of years, and when the Bible says they will get new incorruptible bodies anyway?
Why would a God of love sustain peoples life's while they are tortured endlessly?
Wouldn't a God like that be even more evil than Hitler?
How just would a God be that allowed a man who only killed one person and died a thousand years before Hitler, to be tortured a thousand years longer than Hitler?
I belive the bottom line is: Only God is immortal. God is just, if we choose sin, the wages of sin is death. God is merciful, there is a lake of fire, but the punishment is swift and complete, there is no eternal hell. God is Love, we sleep in our graves until resurrection day, then we spend eternity with him and our loved ones, in the land of no regrets.
God's Blessings for all of you, especially for the one or two of you that really get this. Vance
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Posted 03/09/2009 12:43pm
Author: disciplevance
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tchable...
Did you know Christ preached more about Hell, Hell's fire, Eternal Punishment, Eternal Damnation and the place where the worm dieth not... more than Heaven and it's rewards?
Out of compassion Christ's love for Israel was to "save" those who were lost. Save them from what? Eternal damnation of the soul and body.
Matt 10:28...And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
It was difficult for Jews to break away from the Talmudic teachings and to accept the Messiah and his teachings of the Torah. If the Jews at that hour accepted the Messiahship of Christ...they were rejected of their own kinsmen. They were slighted, ridiculed, and even alienated from the decieved Jewish community that had political ties with Rome.
That's why Christ said...Matt 5:10-12...Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven:
If they accepted the Messiahship of Christ they would've been able to love their kinsman...even if they were ridiculed, persecuted, or alienated for accepting Him. Christ called this "love" a "Perfect love".
Matt 5:44-48...But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
The fact is Jesus' compassion went out to those Jews who accepted the Messiahship Christ. Hell is promised to come upon "all" who reject the Messiahship of Christ. Many in the day and hour "rejected" Christ. That's why he preached the damnation of Hell more in the Gospels... than Heaven.
I'm glad Christ got it across to me in this life. NowIt's my job to get it across to others.
God Bless you TCHABLE...
Rick Roehm
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Posted 03/09/2009 01:16pm
Author: rickroehm
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wisdomsfriend, apparently I was still composing my last blog while you were posting your comments.
Wow! About all I can say is that it's becoming quite clear that this is not the simple subject some people would like to think it is.
And obviously there are differing ways that different people see and understand the same verses.
I just wanted to make sure that anyone who is still studying has all of the verses I can share on this subject.
One thing I can add is this: For me earth will never be a happy place as long as I know millions of people are being murdered and raped and are starving to death, and likewise, I couldn't be happy in heaven if I knew some of my close relatives and friends were suffering in an eternal fire.
If I could impress or convince anyone of just one thing, it would be this: Keep studying, and keep getting to know God's Character better and better.
As you do you will see some of these verses you thought you understood, in a new light.
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Posted 03/09/2009 01:27pm
Author: disciplevance
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DiscipleVance:
This seems harsh in our flesh however God has taken care of this concern for you Is 65:17.
Blessings from NC
Tch
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Posted 03/09/2009 01:38pm
Author: tchable
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tchable, thanks for asking this very pivitol question, it has certainly created a stimulating conversation.
Isaiah 65:17, This verse is a good example of how two Christians can read the same verse and get two different meanings.
I read it this way: After we have been in heaven for a few thousand years, this whole sin problem will only seem like a bad week compaired to eternity.
Every question will have been answered so I doubt if we will spend very much time if any at all thinking about any of it.
However, the God I know and love would not tinker with my mind/memory, - - - even for my own good.
The Bible also says God will not remember our sins, but I don't believe Jesus will ever forget the trillions and trillions of His children He has lost.
If you were Him could you?
Yes, Jesus will wipe away every tear, but who will wipe away His?
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Posted 03/09/2009 02:01pm
Author: disciplevance
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wisdomsfriend, I checked out your blog titled, "Does God use black holes to warn about hell?" And I have a couple of comments.
You seem to contradict yourself when you say;
Scripture says that "everything God does will endure forever" (Eccl. 3:14)
And then you say, "Scripture makes it clear that this world will not last forever;"
You say; "God has created black holes in our universe that illustrate some aspects of this complete separation of hell: a physical object in the material realm to help us realize the utter isolation of hell from all else that exists."
You use the term 'physical object,' so I am guessing that you understand that the thing scientists call a black hole, is not real hole at all, but just an object with an extremely high gravitational pull.
I hope you are not trying to say that Jesus can hide these 'suffering,' people so well (in some other dimension) that He can't see/find/or hear them screeming?
This is a line I can agree with; "This is another example of people having differing definitions of words (like love)"
If this is your definition of 'love,' please stay away from my children. (Just making a point, no offense intended)
Thank you for taking the time to read my blogs.
My prayers and God's Blessings, for you and yours, and your ministry. disciplevance
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Posted 03/09/2009 03:14pm
Author: disciplevance
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disciplevance--Thanks for reading black-hole blog and critiquing it. I both like and dislike this forum (blogging) to discuss things with others. I like it for the opportunity it gives us all to communicate, but dislike the limitations of space and effort to cover all the details to avoid misunderstanding, etc. Also, the matter I mentioned about definition also is a problem--taking so much space to explain every detail about what we write here. For example, knowing that a black hole is not a hole at all but an object of high gravitation . . . well, it depends. I thought I explained why it is called a hole; it is called that for good reasons. But that is not really that important here; I was just using it as an example to illustrate certain aspects of what the Bible says about hell.
For another example, I did know ahead of time that there could be a misunderstanding regarding the fact that this world will end and yet as the Eccl. verse says, all that God makes endures forever. I thought I had made it clear that even though Scripture itself says that the world will end, it also states that a new earth will be formed. In other words, it is only its constitution that changes, not the fact of its existence.
Same goes for the human soul. It will obviously end, in one sense, from a human perspective; that is what is normally meant by death, that we cease to exist (from a purely natural, human perspective; that is the viewpoint of Ecclesiastes in general). But, Scripture is clear in many places that we never cease to exist, just continue to exist in a different form. That is what the rapture is all about, getting our new bodies. We obviously disagree on the wicked's continued existence.
The above area, however, I do not consider to be the most important difference we have. I am more concerned with a difference I see in how we understand what love is. Others who have participated in this blog have already commented on this more important area. It all has to do with that old stumbling block for many people, How can a loving God send people to hell?
No way can I do justice to this perennial question, but I do want to make one point. It is just as you said and I have said: It all has to do with definitions. The Bible makes it clear and simple when it says that God is love (1 Jn. 4:16). God is always the ultimate expression of all that is good, including love. The ultimate expression of love has to be Jesus' sacrifice of himself for us on the cross.
I'm sorry, but I don't think it is fair at all to associate God with a callous heart that cannot hear the lost screaming in hell. He already proved that his heart is one of ultimate love by giving up his only Son for us. He has warned us and warned us over and over again of the seriousness of our decision regarding Jesus. A focus solely on the terrible, eternal consequences of the decision to reject ultimate love glosses over the incomprehensible greatness of that love and the terrible seriousness of the choice that lies before each of us.
I have been wanting to do a blog on this whole matter of the seriousness of the choice God offers us, but seeing how poorly I have apparently done (given your comments about what I wrote--not just that we disagree but that apparently what I wrote was not clear enough to be understood as I meant) I am now more reluctant than ever to attempt such an overwhelmingly profound task. I will pray about this some more. In fact, I may have to rethink this whole matter of blogging at all. I do not like conflict, but I also know it is a part of life and must be dealt with. I pray that all who have responded to this blog will be praying over this whole matter and for all involved. May God's truth and love prevail amongst us.
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Posted 03/09/2009 06:31pm
Author: wisdomsfriend
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wisdomsfriend, I agree, this is a difficult way to communicate, however without CB you and I may have never crossed paths at all.
I was ceartanly not saying that God has a callous heart that cannot hear the lost screaming in hell. My point was just the opposite, - - -that even if they are
somehow out of our sight and mind, that Jesus would still know of their suffering, and that this would hurt His heart, after all they are His children.
You have already agreed that God has the power to kill a soul, so you tell me, why would He sustain their life rather then letting them die to relieve their misery?
After a couple million years of suffering, what would be the point?
Can't you see that this would say something about your gods heart, and somehow shape the definition of his love?
To tchable's original question, "Is there evidence of an eternal hell?" (Notice that even tchable added the question mark) Can we agree to this degree?
Yes, there seems to be evidence, however there also seems to be many verses that are quite difficult to fit into this scenerio, so for now let's say that the evidence is conflictive and inconclusive, and agree to keep studying.
At least that's my plan. God Bless, Vance
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Posted 03/09/2009 10:50pm
Author: disciplevance
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Tch said:
When this blog was first posted I considered it an excellent presentation with the exception of this statement. Even though this statement is true I felt like it had no place in the message. However, since then I have seen this happening. Words are changed, Scripture is taken out of context and ( by itself) seems to support what is being presented when in actuality it does not, and sometimes the order of things to come is changed which tend to change the truth.
As one brother said maybe it is better if we just stay to the basic of our salvation . . . Jesus crucified and His resurrection. I am seriously considering this for to do more is only contention among us.
Blessings
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Posted 03/14/2009 09:12am
Author: literalword
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Well said brother Alight. We should love our friends and relatives enough to tell them the truth even if it may result in some rejection. This rejection is for but a short period. Eternity has no end.
Blessings,
Tch
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Posted 03/21/2009 05:53pm
Author: tchable
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Greetings to all,
This is certainly and interesting -- and might I add, emotion-filled -- blog. The subject is one that enlists strong reactions from most everyone. What I like about the blog, and all the subsequent comments, are not the direct arguments themselves as they pertain to Hell and whether or not there is eternal punishment. Rather, this theological issue is a perfect example of people taking polar positions. It is an example of a theological issue where, as Paul said, "Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind." (Romans 14:5) And yet, while holding to a position on such issues as this one, we recognize that it is not critical to our salvation. We can have the grace to disagree. Moreover, we should recognize that regardless of our position, God's position is the only one that counts. In other words, regardless of what we think, we might be wrong.
The vast majority of Christians throughout church history have taught that Hell is a real place where those who have not been redeemed through the blood of Christ will suffer eternally. And on the surface, Scripture does seem to lead our thinking in that direction. But there is also enough Scriptural evidence to allow for questions on the matter...and at least the possibility that those who hold to a final and complete death, not just physical but spiritual, too, may be right.
The Reformation pastor, Martin Luther, believed that eternal death followed the final judgment...that those who reject Christ are not tormented in an eternal Hell but spiritually die. They cease to be. C.S. Lewis, in Mere Christianity, allows for a similar possibility. The greater issue here, I believe, and the lesson we can all learn, is that since this is not a critical issue of the Christian faith, we need to allow for different views.
Rather than writing more detail on the issue, I would encourage everyone who has an interest on the subject -- and even those who don't -- to download a podcast message by Greg Boyd, pastor of Woodland Hills Church. He specifically addresses the question with Scripture and his own thoughts. Pastor Boyd happens to agree with Martin Luther. But that isn't his major point of the message. His points that are worth hearing are that it's okay to question God on uncertain issues and that, even if we hold to one particular view, it's okay to consider the other view and think that it just might be possible.
There may be other ways to get this podcast, but I got it by opening iTunes and then clicking on their store. Once in the store, search Greg Boyd. You'll then be offered to subscribe to his podcasts. (It's free.) The podcast I refer to is the one entitled, "Tormented in the Flames?" It's dated: 1/11/2009
In the end, I personally do not know who is right. Boyd makes an interesting argument worthy of consideration. I might even say that I lean that direction. But I don't know for sure.
What I do know is this:
1) God loves each and every one of us more than we understand
2) Jesus gave up his life on the cross so that we may live eternally with him.
3) God is deeply grieved that any should parish
4) Whether those who reject him suffer eternally or are put to spiritually death, they will have missed out on knowing the fullness of God's love...a love that we will only know completely once we go to be with him in eternity.
Again, I would encourage all to take 40 minutes to listen to Boyd's message. Regardless of your present view, I think you'll come away from it having been blessed.
Michael
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Posted 03/27/2009 07:53am
Author: mkmills
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Thank you brother mkmills, spoken like a true Christian gentleman.
Matthew 5:9, Blessed [are] the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
I agree that this is not a salvation issue, however it certianly did not work very well when I tried to use fear to evangelize my athiest friends.
I will see if I can find a way to listen to that pod cast by Greg Boyd,
thanks again, Vance
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Posted 03/28/2009 03:15pm
Author: disciplevance
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Thank you mkmills, I took your advice, and listened to Greg Boyd's sermon titled, "Tormented in Flames?"
I could have saved my breath (fingers) and all of my comments on this subject by simply referring eveyone to Greg's sermon, it covers this subject extremly well, and he does so in a kind, and fair and loving way.
Here are a couple of Bible verses from that study, Psalms 30:5, Psalms 103:9, Lamentations 3:32-33.
And here is a link to Woodland Hills Church, and his (free)sermon. http://www.whchurch.org/content/page_910.htm
It is the second sermon from the top dated 1-11-2009. "Tormented in Flames?" (You will have a choice between an audio and a video version).
Father please give them the will to listen, and the ears to hear.
To God be the Glory, lv Vance
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Posted 03/28/2009 07:40pm
Author: disciplevance
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After a careful review of Rev 20:14-15 and comparison of the terms with Hosea 13:14 much thanks belong to Bimonics for bringing to my attention a better interpretation of the terms used, death and hades. Thank you brother . . . Accuracy in truth is so important.
I sincerely appreciate your attention to detail and welcome you sharing light on any future occasion where you see it is needed.
Blessings,
Tch
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Posted 04/02/2009 02:12pm
Author: tchable
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tchable, found this interesting. Noticed you have not been on the site since I joined, at least not in comments or blogs. I personally, can not begin to comprehend how one denies that hell is not both real, and eternal. Jesus Christ Himself said it is. Some do not believe that, that is the freedom we have of choice.
I have even heard some who believe it will only be temporary for some, can not comprehend where that view comes from, scripturally. Eternal, means exactly that, eternal. Not gonna change.
Hope you see this, great blog. Maranatha.
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Posted 10/31/2009 09:30am
Author: billyb
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None of us want to find out that we have been deceived by the Devil (Satan, Lucifer, the Serpent) on any Bible topic. Yet we can tell from the stories of what he tried to do to Jesus that he will use the very same Bible verses that we know to do just that. Deception is what he seems to do best.
Years ago it dawned on me that John 3:16, the Bible verse most EVERYONE knows by heart tells us clearly and as plainly as it can be what our two options are.
This verse tells us that Jesus came into this world to save us and to give us life eternal, but that if we don't believe (trust) in Him we will perish.
At about this same time in my life it also dawned on me that the lie the Devil (Satan, the serpent, Lucifer) told Eve was trying to deceive her on this very same topic. He said, You will not surely die. (Genesis 3:4) The Serpent came right out and told her that she would NOT die, which if I understand correctly means that she would live forever.
If you really do not want to be deceived by the Devil's teachings then look at what has been written above by DiscipleVance. Vance has plainly shared what the Bible really teaches about death. A few years back I created a timeline so that I could share this same truth in graphic form. (The RED line in this timeline represents those that are dead. Full size is so much easier to read, but I cannot display it full size, sorry.)
The Devil loves to twist scripture all around and make it seems so hard to understand. PLEASE, don't let him deceive you into believing that the Bible actually teaches his lies.
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Posted 11/27/2009 04:35am
Author: lineman
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In regards to an eternal hell, I interpret what Jesus said as meaning just that. Mk. 9:43, "fire that never shall be quenced", same words in Mk. 9:44,45,48, repetition is used to plainly show one does not want to go.
Eternal and unquenchable are plain in meaning to me, if they get changed, it was not by me.
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Posted 11/27/2009 05:06am
Author: billyb
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Hi Billyb,
I agree that we are not at liberty to change God's word. Not even a little bit. So I am trying to totally understand what is being said there.
Fire that cannot be quenched is like the fire I saw along the road one day. A pickup truck was burning, the fire department was there trying, but without success to put it out. No matter what they did this fire was unquenchable. It only quit burning when the fuel was gone.
The Bible's "Unquenchable" fire is fire that cannot be put out until the fuel is gone too. I totally believe that the Bible teaches that there will be a Hell that burns and that it will be unquenchable, but the Bible also teaches that this fire will eventually go out and that the wicked will be "ashes" under our feet.This verse (and others) tell us that because the wicked will "be ashes under the soles of your feet" we can know that they will NOT be off burning someplace in the far corner of the universe. God loves you and me. He loves them too, but just because they choose to believe a lie (2 Thessalonians 2:10-12) does not mean that God will burn them throughout eternity. I'm like you in that I believe the whole Bible. We just differ in how we have been taught and how we understand what we read, but that NEVER changes what the Bible actually teaches.
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Posted 11/27/2009 05:27am
Author: lineman
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Sorry, I should have commented on this statement too.Apparently even though the meaning seems to be plain to you and me what was actually meant by the writer may not be what we think.
As an example, do you remember when Jonah was in the belly of the big "fish"? The Bible tells us that we was there for 3 days, right? (Jonah 1:17) It also tells us that this period of 3 days was "for ever". (Jonah 2:6) Sometimes we have to take what is being said and let the rest of the Bible tell us what the words mean because otherwise we will totally misunderstand them. If we just took the words "for ever" we would have to believe that Jonah was still in the belly of the fish, but the rest of the text make it very plain that this is not the case.
To me the words "forever" and "eternal" can mean whatever we want them to almost, but it is my desire to see what God wants us to understand when He uses those words in the Bible.
Blessings my friend,
dan
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Posted 11/27/2009 05:50am
Author: lineman
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I choose to believe when Jesus said "fire that never shall be quenched", He spoke what He meant. Since He quoted Isaiah 66:24, I believe He also confirmed what Isaiah prophecied. Matt. 25:41,46, I also believe Jesus meant exactly what He said. I believe it is literal, I personally will not move, at all, from that belief. I respect your freedom in your belief on Hell as well.
Jonah 2:6, to me it is plain that he was speaking of the distress he felt, he said "bottoms of the mountains", and 'earth with her bars", I don`t take that literal because obviously, he went into the sea, then the great fish.
Everywhere Jesus mentions "eternal", "everlasting", I take it literally, my friend. I have much hope and assurance in believing that, as far as trusting Christ our Lord, Gods Son, who was, God with us. I take the warnings the same, literally. You be blessed as well, my friend. YBIC, Billy
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Posted 11/27/2009 06:23am
Author: billyb
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Seems to me that we as Christians should NEVER say that we will never change our minds. Jesus changed a lot of minds in the past and I want Him to do whatever He wants to do with my mind, but I think I understand what you are saying. If I am hearing you correctly you are saying that because Jesus said it you are going to believe it no matter what anyone else says, and that's how we all should feel in a way. What I am wanting to do though is to allow Jesus to change me if and where I'm wrong (and I'm sure that I don't have it all together yet).
I have looked at this subject for many years and of course, like you, I only want to believe the truth. Jesus is the author of the entire Bible and so if He explains Himself elsewhere in the Bible I feel that I must listen and meditate on that too.
I'm not sure this applies to what we are talking about here, but this verse came to mind as I was finishing this comment.I guess this verse tells me/us that even when we absolutely "know" that we are right, we can be dead wrong. (I don't believe that God will keep either of us out of Heaven just because we do not understand what He was trying to say to us though.)
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Posted 11/27/2009 05:39pm
Author: lineman
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BTW, I just made a comment that some reading this blog may not be so sure about. I said, "Jesus is the author of the entire Bible and so if He explains Himself elsewhere in the Bible I feel that I must listen and meditate on that too." I am thinking that some may no understand where I'm coming from so I thought maybe I should explain.
In these verses Jesus is talking:This tells me that the Holy Spirit will give us only what comes from Jesus. Here is another verse that helps explain my comment:
These verses taken together tell us that The Holy Ghost (The Holy Spirit) speaks only what Jesus tells Him, therefore the entire Bible was given to these "holy men" indirectly by Jesus. (It's kind of like me giving something to my wife to give to my daughter. It's still from me, not from my wife even though she is the one who actually hands it to my daughter.)
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Posted 11/27/2009 06:13pm
Author: lineman
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And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Rev 20:10
Anyone reading at a 4th grade reading level, can comprehend the above scripture.
Be wary when anyone tries to teach that God meant something other than the words he spoke.
Satan always seeks to deceive people that the Word of God means something totally different than what a person reads.
On more than one occasion I've seen people who refute the doctrine of eternal judgment, also try and teach that Jesus and Satan are brothers! Such heresy that teaches Satan could be Jesus brother gives clear evidence one does not possess the Spirit of Christ.
I'm by no means stating that those on this thread who disbelieve eternal judgment, are making that assertion, but only from my experience I've seen others try and teach both fallacies.
The words of the prophet Isaiah still ring true Isa 8:20
God Bless
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Posted 11/27/2009 06:01pm
Author: christiangent
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"Eternal Judgment" and "fire that burns for eternity" are two totally different things in my book. The scripture is very clear that there is a hell coming and that at the end of hell is death. Someone way back in Eden got the idea started that we NEVER really die. Why do we believe him rather than what the Bible actually teaches?
What part of "perish" do we not understand? Are we to teach that those who don't believe in Jesus will still have "eternal life" even though it's in Hell?Please understand that I'm not trying to be rude here, but what part of "death" is hard for us to understand?
Do we really believe the whole Bible? Seems to me that if we are really "dead" we will not even know that we are burning.
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Posted 11/27/2009 06:31pm
Author: lineman
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The idea that got started back in Eden was that you do not have to believe God.
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Posted 11/27/2009 07:26pm
Author: billyb
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Exactly! God said you will die, Satan said otherwise. Now our churches are teaching people that Satan was right and that we don't have to believe God? Why?
I guess I should refrain from commenting on this blog any more too. It's hard though isn't it? We both believe that we KNOW what the Bible is trying to teach us, yet at least one of us is wrong and maybe both of us are. (By the way, I'm sorry to hear that your mind is so made up that even if Jesus were to come to you and personally tell you that what you think He said is NOT what He actually said you'd still not believe Him. I feel bad for you, but you are free to do as you feel you must.)
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Posted 11/27/2009 08:43pm
Author: lineman
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Yeah, we could go on endlessly, the end result will be the same. Jesus made it very clear when here in flesh, His teaching is what CONFIRMS hell is real, and endless. Your definition of "death", is very much different from mine. I will do a blog on hell, and you are free to do the same. Maranatha friend.
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Posted 11/28/2009 04:43am
Author: billyb
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Brother Dan, this will be my last comment here. I don`t guess I made it clear enough, so let me be brief and to the point.
I will respect your view on hell, clearly you believe in annihilation, instead of eternal torment, of the lost. I dis-agree, enough scripture for both sides has already been given in this blog, and out of respect I went over them all.
In your above comment, let me be very clear here, I will NEVER believe there will be anything other than an eternal hell, where those who have not been saved through Jesus Christ, will spend eternity, eternity meaning endless suffering, and not annihilated. And yes, I believe Jesus made the point very clear, at least in my opinion. So, as far as hell, I DO mean never.
I know many find that hard to accept, just as some have problems with only one way of salvation, that being born-again through Jesus Christ, by believing, following, and obeying. We have freedom to choose, and I respect that freedom, but will not compromise on either point I made here. There are many other teachings, when I say never I mean these two in this comment. In Christ, Billy
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Posted 11/27/2009 06:23pm
Author: billyb
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Just a few more thoughts...
One of the posters has already mentioned Isa chapter 66:23-24 - I'm baffled how anyone can read that portion of Isaiah's prophesy and not understand the purposes of God's Judgment.
I believe God has a dual purpose for Eternal Judgment. (To judge, and to prevent future judgment in the ages to come)
Some may be under the impression God's judgment against sin/rebellion is only for a 'period of time', but they fail to understand ETERNITY.
Perfect Love for God, is only promised to the redeemed. 1 John 4:12-18 1 John 2:5
The Bible is clear on what prevents the redeemed Saints from future sin/rebellion against God in the ages to come.
Perfect Love for God is NOT PROMISED TO THE REST OF THE HOST OF HEAVEN.
Remember God is known and called the LORD of host, as their are billions of Angelic beings in his Kingdom.
Therefore for those who do not believe in the Doctrine of Eternal Punishment, how would you answer the following question?
* In the ages to come, (ETERNITY) what's to prevent the Angels, and all the host of heaven from rebelling against God?
NOW look closely at this portion of scripture, where it is stated.."SHALL BE TORMENTED WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE HOLY ANGELS"
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: Rev 14:10 (KJV)
Our GOD has no intention on allowing ANYONE ever again, to sin and rebel against his Love and Authority. (Like Satan did)
ALL the purposes of GOD, Everything GOD is doing, and will do, is for ETERNITY.
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Posted 11/27/2009 09:05pm
Author: christiangent
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I attempted to reply to:
literalword wrote:
posted 03/07/2009 07:26am
I've been pondering that statement: "The teaching of there being an eternal hell is a satanic lie?" The logic of it just does not register for me. Why would the teaching of eternal punishment be a lie from satan? . Just seems to me teaching there is an eternal hell would be counterproductive for the evil one. If this is true maybe he is attempting to rebuke Jude 1:23 [Open in Libronix (if available)] .
Anyhow, seems satan teaching there is a place of eternal punishment would be a division in his house. A house divided cannot stand.
There is an eternal hell but praise God, the redeemed will never partake of it.
But the system would not accept the reply for some reason. I'll post my reply here at the end, which may be a better solution anyway as it would have been buried up near the top and probably not seen...
My reply:
This certainly leaves one major question...
The wages of sin is death, we all know that. Jesus died on the cross, taking the penalty of sin for us.
If we are to suffer eternal punishment in a forever burning fire as the penalty for our sins, then I would have to ask, how did the death of Jesus on the cross serve as the substitute for us, shouldn't He be burning forever in hell?
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Posted 12/09/2009 08:27am
Author: gregory
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WowI finally finished reading all of the comments. And oh, there is so much that could be said...how to be brief??? Oooops, this will be long, but worth your time.
To startI used to moderate Christian Forums, and what a job that can be. Christians fighting like crazy. At least this discussion was mostly civil in comparison to others I have witnessed (yes, it was).
We have one topic, what happens when we die? Annihilation, or Eternal Torture?
I've seen and participated in similar discussions many, many times. Those on each side of the issue are always firmly planted. Why is this so, and why is it that no one ever changes or even wants to change? After many years of moderating forums, I came to this conclusion
1- Satan is the master deceiver. We must first accept this fact or we are all in trouble.
2- Each Church has its own doctrinal beliefs.
To better illustrateeach doctrinal belief system is like a brick wall with each topic being represented by a different brick.
You start with a foundation and then build the doctrinal wall upward from there (all differing opinions claim to use the Bible as their foundation).
Each wall is built with its own color & size of brick, which is different from all other brick walls. When there are differences of opinions between Church beliefs, one person tries to remove the brick from another's wall and replace it with his own (this is what is happening here). The problem now is that the wall is no longer in harmony and the replaced brick doesn't fit, therefore this brick CANNOT be accepted as a replacement for the brick already in place. (Translation: the change in part of a belief system usually affects other beliefs in that same system, thus rendering the belief system to be out of harmony).
3- A mind is like an umbrellait must be open in order to work. Since the Bible is the foundation and there is only one Truthyet many different opinions, obviously point #1 must be consideredSatan is the master deceiver. Those who refuse to be open minded are the most susceptible to be deceived, mostly because they refuse to believe any opinion other than what they already believe, and the fact that every Church disagrees doesn't seem to raise a red flag at all. The simple fact that Satan could have deceived them is not a possibility to the closed minded person. Look around, they are everywhere.
4- NO ONE want to believe that their Church could possibly be wrong.
5- EVERYONE believes that all other Churches MUST be wrong.
So now what? How can a group of people who are opposed in a discussion of a topic such as this actually come together and seek the real truth. Obviously, one side is wrong. Possibly, both sides may be wrong as there may be another possibility. Pride should never enter into a Bible Study, but rather a seeking only for God's truth. Take the time and go back and read through this study again, and tell me how much pride you seeI see a lot. Sorry, not meaning to hurt your feelings, but it is there, if you only look.
Don't be fooled by the belief that so what if I'm wrong, it doesn't affect anything, for this is what allows Satan to deceive you even further. Read the following:
Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Can such a study be resolved? Can truth be found? Can the hard questions be asked without insult, and can real answers be found? Usually notand guess whatSatan wins another battle. Now what?
When I get involved in a topical study, I like to look for the basic foundational issue of that topic, the one thing, or the one verse that points in a certain direction, the one thing that under no circumstance cannot be changed, or even lean in another direction. This is not easy. It requires careful study, an open mind, lots of prayer, a lot of careful deliberation and tough questions. We must be very careful, because sometimes, the meaning of a word may not mean what we think. So often we use our own definition, when we should in fact let the Bible speak by visiting other places in the Scriptures which will define such meanings. It's tough, but can be done.
Anyone have a foundational point upon which this topic should be built?
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Posted 12/09/2009 12:23pm
Author: gregory
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The foundational point you speak of is going to also be a problem, because there will be two. The OT does not go into much detail as far as eternal hell. Isaiah spoke of it briefly, Isa. 66:24, already mentioned. Daniel did, Dan. 12:2.
The New Testament tells us much more, because it was Our Lord Jesus Christ Himself who told us it was eternal, leaving many of us with no doubt whatsoever. None of the apostles or early disciples questioned His teachings. 1 Tim. 6:3-5.
I have personally found that those who reject this, teach a Christ other than what is told in the Bible, not to say they all do. Also they may go by prophets who arose later, and have different teachings. Those of these groups have other "inspired teachings" they feel have more authority than the Bible. Not saying all, but many do, I have found.
Here is the foundation I personally go by as far as eternal hell. Matt. 25:41,46. Mk. 9:43,48. Lk. 16:19-31. For me personally, those who say Jesus meant something else, say this: everlasting and eternal does not really mean everlasting and eternal, fire that shall never be quenched, really means it will be, their worm dieth not, notice "their", does not really mean their worm dieth not, "never" does not really mean never. I believe each of these, mean exactly what they say.
They use Gen. 3:4, to teach satan has the churches telling his lie. The deception satan uses is that the consequences of sin are not that great, God says they are. God also said in Gen. 2:17, that "on the day you eat of it, you will certainly die". I believe the death God spoke of happened exactly when He said it would, "on the day". When sin entered, so did this death God spoke of.
I will not speak any more on this subject, I believe I have presented all I can. I will add that this is a VERY serious subject I believe, which is the only reason I responded as I have. If I have offended anyone, I am sorry. I will respect others right to believe as they do, as I hope they do ours. In Christ, Billy
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Posted 12/09/2009 02:10pm
Author: billyb
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Hi Billy,
You wrote:
Here is the foundation I personally go by as far as eternal hell. Matt. 25:41 ,46 . Mk. 9:43 ,48 . Lk. 16:19-31 . For me personally, those who say Jesus meant something else, say this: everlasting and eternal does not really mean everlasting and eternal, fire that shall never be quenched, really means it will be, their worm dieth not, notice "their", does not really mean their worm dieth not, "never" does not really mean never. I believe each of these, mean exactly what they say.
I appreciate your strong position. Those very words have come out of my mouth before too. I understand exactly why you feel that way. It is natural to feel that way. Today, I feel very fortunate that someone showed me that things are not always as they appear to be on the surface. Let me explain
When we read the Bible, such as the verses you have quoted, and we read certain words of which we are 100% certain of the definitions, we know that we can draw certain conclusions and feel secure in our position. I was shown how man's reasoning in such situations may not always be correct. Although the meaning seems obvious, if we take a step back and let the Bible define its position, we sometimes find that our conclusion is in error.
One example I was shown was used further up in this thread, and it involves the use of the word forever. I know what forever means, and there is just no way it can mean anything else, and I am sure there are many, many Christians who feel exactly the same way. Yet, the Bible does not use that word in the way we do today. I read recently that forever is used 56 times in the Bible in connection with things that have already ended. In Jonah 2:6, "for ever" means "three days and nights." (See also Jonah 1:17.) In Deuteronomy 23:3, this means "10 generations." In reference to man, this means "as long as he lives" or "until death." See 1 Samuel 1:22, 28; & Exodus 21:6.
Consider the following verses:
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little."
Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was to them, "Precept upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little," That they might go and fall backward, and be broken And snared and caught.
Notice the second half of verse 13. For those who close their mind to what the Scriptures have to say to us, they can fall backward and be broken, snared and caught. We are to compare the Scriptures and let the Scriptures define itself and interpret itself.
If I were to insist that forever means exactly what I think it means, then I would interpret the Scriptures inaccurately. I had a bit of trouble accepting this at first, but I sat and studied it, and found that what I was told WAS correct. My way of looking at it was wrong. God defines what He means. What I think may be wrong, and I need to dig deep to find truth. To just take a word for its usual meaning is dangerous. Those who only study what appears to be obvious will miss what is below the surface.
In studying the words eternal & everlasting, like you I felt they meant what they said. But like the word forever there are some deeper meanings, and when we compare the other Scriptures on this topic, once again things are not what they appear to be on the surface.
I have come to realize that God in His wisdom wrote the Bible in such a way that our hearts are truly tested. Will our pride and stubbornness prevail while we insist God meant what WE THINK He meant, or in humility will we let God define what He means by comparing Scripture with Scripture? If we do the former, Satan will lead us astray every time. If we do the latter, God will show us His truth. Like an umbrella, the mind only works when it is open. This is a decision that each of us has to make, no one can do it for us. I struggled with this at first, as it didn't seem logical, but after careful study, I realized that I HAVE to let God define what He means by comparing the Scriptures carefully. And yes, this means we have to apply ourselves more diligentlyin other words, it requires a bit of work on our parts, but if we Love God, studying His Word is not a work of labor, but a work of Love!
I won't take the time here to go through the words eternal & everlasting here, I have already written too much for a reply. Others have attempted that study already. It's up to you as to whether you want to consider whether or not to let God define the terms or if you will define them according to your own understanding. I struggled through this, and you probably will too. That is normal. When we decide to let God define the terms, studying the Bible takes on a whole new meaning. Yes, it does require a bit more effort, but consider these verses:
Act 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
It is up to us as to whether we will be like those in Berea, and search the word with all readiness of mindor, be like those in Thessalonica. As for me, I want to know how God defines what He means. What I think means nothing. Isn't this how God wants us to think?
Have a blessed dayand enjoy your studies!!!
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Posted 12/10/2009 06:11am
Author: gregory
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Hi Billy,
I am never offended by anyone who believes in Jesus, even if they are not able to believe as I do. You and I are brothers and sometimes brothers just do not see things the same way. You wrote though that: I am writing to make it perfectly clear that my Lord Jesus Christ is the same as your Lord Jesus Christ, the One and only Son of God, the One and only Redeemer and Savior of man, the One who died on a cross so that no one has to perish, but that all might have eternal life if they believe in Him. Though we differ on our understanding of His words we are talking about the same Person. This is the very same Jesus who said in Revelation that He was going to do away with all the old and make everything NEW.
Billy, you wrote that this is a VERY serious subject and I agree 100%. And I understand your not wanting to speak of this anymore because it makes us upset and angry at times when we feel that people are taking what our Lord Jesus says and seem to totally discount His own words, but like Gregory and Vance said above, sometimes what the translators have done is incorrectly translated words or ideas and sometimes the words are correct, but our understanding of them is not correct.
I very much believe that when Jesus said something He meant it, but because I was not there I MUST also rely on what He inspired the other writers of the Bible to tell me about this subject, to help me understand what HE meant.
You wrote:I see the OT as telling us a great deal about "eternal hell". Two passages in the OT especially seem to make this eternal fire more understandable for me. These verses make it very plain to me that it's the effects, the results of this fire that are eternal, not the suffering and pain.
(Ashes are what is left after a fire, right?)
These two texts tell me that the OT says the same thing that the NT tells me; Jesus will make ALL things new and sinners will NOT be alive throughout all eternity.
A common statement when talking about this subject typically goes, "Why is it so hard to understand forever as meaning for eternity?" The questions that came to my mind as I was thinking about Jesus' words in Revelation 21:4, 5 was, "Why is it so hard to understand Jesus when HE says that everything old is gone and ALL things are NEW? Why is it so hard to understand OLD and NEW? Why is it so hard to see that it's the effects of Hell that are eternal, not the pain? Jesus said that there will be NO more pain, how can anyone believe that pain and suffering will exist throughout eternity? And when the Lord of Hosts says that HE will do something why is it so hard to believe HIM?"
It is my prayer that other readers of this blog will not see our differences here as us being angry at one another, but rather as brothers strongly stating what they see as the truth of the matter. I respect your right to believe as you feel you must. My only request is that you take a closer look at what Jesus Himself says about this topic throughout the Bible. Our God is a God of LOVE and HE said that HE will do away with pain and suffering and even death itself. I believe HIM!
Blessings,
dan
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Posted 12/12/2009 03:43am
Author: lineman
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Dan, as this was directed to me personally, I will respond. When I said these teach a Christ other than what is in the Bible, this is one example, what He said about hell. I do not believe all four Gospels were mis-translated in reference to what Christ said about hell, you do, obviously. You seem to pick and choose where eternal and everlasting mean that, or something different. Matt. 25:46, has the same word where it says some go to punishment, and some to life, both eternally. That must mean it is right once, and wrong once, in the same sentence. You would have to go through and change many verses, and leave others the same, where eternal and everlasting are. Sorry to be blunt, but it is true. In doing this, you also do not believe the other verses mean what they say, in the above thread I wrote.
No, I do not believe as you do. No, this does not make me upset and angry. I believe the translators translated accurately what Christ said, all four Gospels, even where it speaks of hell.
In your above reference, in Ezek. 28th Chapter. Brother Vance in his threads and blogs he mentioned, says this referred to satan. I believe anyone who reads it can see that it obviously does. Why then, can we not accept Rev. 20: 10, what the verse clearly says? Was this mis-translated too? Sorry, friend, I will not accept that the NT, is full of errors, being mis-translated. I do not say that in a mean or demeaning way, just as how I believe.
If any later prophet or teacher, says the Bible is mis-translated and means different than what it said, changes the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and claims to have truths not found in the Bible, I will not accept them. Heb. 1:1,2. I do not mean that in a bad way either.
I will respect your right to believe as you and others do, and ask the same for myself and those who believe as I. Let us agree, we dis-agree on hell, whether it is eternal punishment, or annihilation, OK? Love ya, In Christ, Billy.
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Posted 12/12/2009 08:28am
Author: billyb
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Hello Everyone,
Even though I don't post as often as I once did, I do 'check in' once in awhile and read what others are saying. (I did contribute one addition on this blog when it first came out.)
I would like to add a thought now that doesn't directly pertain to this subject, but it does add depth:
Back in the early 1970s my brother was on staff with Campus Crusade for Christ. During staff training one summer Pastor Ron Dunn gave a series of messages over three days. My brother gave me the three cassette tapes of those messages. (Pastor Dunn passed away a number of years ago. He was a Baptist minister from Texas. I tried to find the messages so I could provide all of you a link, but was unsuccessful.)
Pastor Dunn had entitled the messages: The Purpose of a Branch. He used John chapter 15 where Jesus drew an analogy of grape vines and branches to describe our relationship with him and the Father. In verse 5 Christ said:
"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing."
The point Pastor Dunn drove home is that we can do nothing apart from Christ's work in and through us. At one point he humorously noted: A branch is nothing more than a 'hangar' for grapes. It is the 'Vine' that provides the life and produces the fruit. Our purpose and calling is to merely abide...
He went on to note that if we 'go to seed' on anything other than Christ, we will fall into excess. If some good doctrine, the Holy Spirit, helping the poor, evangelism or any other Christian virtue becomes our point of focus -- anything other than Jesus Christ -- we will cease being what Christ desires of us: i.e., to simply be a branch focused on Him.
That message has stuck with me all these years and I see the sad results of failing to heed it in many areas. I see it in arguments regarding Calvinism versus Arminianism. I see it in arguments pertaining to God's Love versus God's Justice. And, I see it in arguments pertaining to Eternal Hell versus Annihilationism or Universalism.
Brothers and sisters, it's one thing to hold to a belief or understanding pertaining to a portion of Scripture that is not critical to the Christian Faith and quite another thing -- a very dangerous thing -- to become so certain of that belief that it becomes our focus rather than Jesus Christ.
It is unlikely that any individual's opinion (belief) regarding this subject or any other will be changed by what 'we' say here. But let us all look deeply into our own hearts and pray that we do not get focused on anything or anyone other than Christ. For that danger exists equally for us all, regardless of our views on this issue or any other.
Through Scripture, God has told us all we need to know at this point in our eternal existence. But He has not told us everything that is or will yet be. Moreover, God did not make everything in Scripture 'crystal clear.' I suspect He did that intentionally so that we would focus on Him and not some idea.
"No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him..." (1 Corinthians 2:9)
When each of us first came to Christ, it was an act of submission on our part. That remains our calling now: simply to submit our lives daily to our Lord and King, Jesus Christ. May He remain our focus.
Blessings,
Michael
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Posted 12/12/2009 08:02am
Author: mkmills
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Brother Michael . . . you are a blessing, as always. God bless you brother and continue ministering Love. As each earthly day grows a little dimmer than the one before the Light and Love of Jesus continues to encourage us and free us from the sorrow and fear which is gradually sneaking in and overcoming those who in truth do not have the love of God in their hearts. The WORD of God enlightens us as we see His Word becoming reality in each news broadcast of world events. We know He is coming soon. His Kingdom will come and His will will be done on Earth just as it is in heaven.
The day is come to put aside dogmatic doctrines which bring no one to Christ. We are in Him and He is in us . . . to everyone whom these words pertain, they will never experience a hell, eternal or not. The Spirit of God speaks strongly within me urging me to speak the words which will bring multitudes into Jesus, the Love of God. By the Spirit of God working through us we are to call all men into Light, into Jesus, into the Love of God. Not one of us can save even one soul from hell, eternal or not. Jesus is salvation . . . the only Salvation for man.
Bless you brother. May God bless you and strengthen you and continue to flow through your voice and your pen.
LOVE, which exists only in JESUS, to all who love Him and are called by His Name. He is the only true door ... let us lead them to the Door and JESUS will allow them in.
Tch
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Posted 12/12/2009 09:29pm
Author: tchable
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Log Into Chatroom 
