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Women Pastors, Twisted Scripture, and Itching Ears |
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Posted By: youaregolden
Women Pastors, Twisted Scriptures, and Itching Ears
(Please pray before reading this, ask God to open your heart.)
1 Timothy 2:11-15[11]Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. [12]But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. [13]For Adam was first formed, then Eve. [14]And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. [15]Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
I do not believe that women should be pastors, nor they should they have authority over a man in church. These verses are complete Biblical proof why I believe this. This is the Word of God. These Words were inspired by God into a man and written down. But I do not see the man who wrote them and his "opinion", but I see God speaking.
God here is truly saying that women should NOT be pastors under any circumstance. Why? Some people wonder. Well, I believe that he did this because women were deceived first. Man wasn't deceived. Only Eve was deceived by the serpent. Adam's sin was NOT stopping her. Women are also more emotional. More easily deceived. More compassionate. More fickle. Men are not so emotional. Men are very even keeled. Men are less compassionate and more truthful. Men stick to their guns. I think that God made it this way because he made man that way for his purpose. I would rather have a man preaching to me because I trust men more then I trust women. I know I am down on my own sex, but that is because I know our fickleness.
A question to ponder. Why didn't Jesus choose a woman as one of His disciples? He was already rocking the boat enough choosing the dregs of society to choose fisherman and tax collectors as His disciples as well as the very man who would betray Him. He would have really rocked the boat more if He would have chosen a woman, say the prostitute who washed His feet with her perfume. Don't you think, the Lord would have chosen a woman as His disciple if He intended them to be pastors/teachers in a church. He didn't restrict the women from following Him where ever He went. He was not restricting the women to learn, but maybe this was showing them that they cannot teach. Just a thought.
Women must NOT be preachers. It is against God's Holy Word. We can twist any Scripture, say that it is just a man speaking, say that it doesn't apply to us. But that means we cannot take any part of Scripture as true. If we say one part doesn't apply to us, then NONE of it applies. The Bible is a whole, and we cannot pick an choose. We cannot say that one part of the Scripture is true, and say another part is false. That is wrong.
Proverbs 30:5-6:
[5]Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. [6]Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
But do we have itching ears? Do we want the Word of God to say its OK to be women pastors because we want to up there, we don't want to submit, because we don't think that could be right. But isn't the Word of God always right?
2 Timothy 4:2-5[2]Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. [3]For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; [4]And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. [5]But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
We are warned not to have itching ears. Not to twist the Scriptures. And I believe that if we take Deborah being a JUDGE (note I didn't say priest. Priest's jobs are different then judges. Priests are like pastors.) and say that women can be pastors, that is twisting God Word. Please understand! I am not trying to be harsh or mean, but I am trying to help you see that we cannot twist scripture and say we are not. I don't want to see my brothers and sisters in Christ sinning because of their longing to be in power.
God gives us roles. And God made us and knows how we are. So God wrote His Word accordingly. Do not let your pride get in the way of the Truth. God calls us to be humble. And pray before making action.
Just because a women wants to be a pastor, doesn't mean it is right. God makes it clear that women cannot be pastors. It is not right for a women to be a pastor just because the men aren't doing their job. Like I stated in another blog "It is NEVER right, to do wrong to do right."
In closing, I would like to say that I am not directed this blog at anyone. I just don't want to see my brothers and sisters in Christ believing something that is not true and not of God. If God says something is wrong in His Word, then it is wrong. There is NOTHING we can do to change what God's Word says. God has spoken. It is a matter if you will listen or not.
Please do NOT bash men after reading this blog. They have their issues too, yes. But we first need to look at the plank in our own eye. Adam did sin in NOT stopping Eve from eating the fruit and giving into her, a lot like what men these days too. Men just give into their wives, and women are easily deceived. Its been that way since the Beginning.
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Posted: 05/01/08 1:36pm - Total Views: 2,267 - Category: Bible Studies
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blessings2you |
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Posted by:
blessings2you 
(Posted: 05/02/08 6:13am)
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Great courage to post this. We all know it usually leads to a firestorm. Please allow me to use this comment to state what I really believe on this subject since I admit that I have written things not reflecting my heart in the past on this topic.
If God intended men to bear children, nurse them, etc; He most certainly could have and would have made their physical bodies differently. God never wanted a man to get pregnant, carry a child, bear a child etc. It was not and is not His will. So, when a man decides God made a mistake and gets an operation to alter his body to supposedly become a woman; does that make him a woman in God's sight? Does that grant him the privilege of bearing children? I think not.
God designed women to have the greatest responsibility in human life. It is truly a horrible thing that culture has so demeaned childbirth that women feel it is a curse instead of the greatest blessing any human could have. If women understood just how incredible the honor is they have of bearing children; there would be no discussion of things like preachers, pastors etc. This subject only comes up because society has managed to make the person speaking and preaching more important than the one bearing children and raising the children.
God made men to be leaders. God designed men to be fathers. It is in their genes. Women have their authority in childbirth and raising the children. Men have their authority in "ruling" the family and being leaders and servants in the church. Why is this so difficult for people to handle? Why can't we just allow the Word of God to have its way?
God did indeed have a few women who were great leaders in the Bible, but by and large women's roles were different than men's. NOT LESS than men, just DIFFERENT. People have decided to make what men did more important than women, not God.
Our society is full of men wanting to be women and women wanting to be men. Romans chapter 1 certainly brings up how God feels about this subject. Either the Word of God is right or Hollywood and the ever increasing Gay community is right. Do we water down the Word of God to appease the multitude of people who believe they should have the RIGHT to choose their sex?
Do we water down the Word just because the culture decides women have the RIGHT to choose to kill their unborn children? Do we water down the Word because someone doesn't like this or that in the Bible? I say NO. Either we believe what the Bible says or we should quit calling ourselves Bible believing Christians and join the liberal throngs who believe whatever they want to believe or is most convenient.
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allforhim |
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Posted by:
allforhim
(Posted: 05/02/08 8:08am)
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A simple look at Scripture tells us what kind of woman is beautiful and precious in God's sight:
Proverbs 31:30-31:
[30]Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised. [31]Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.
1 Peter 3:3-4[3]Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; [4]But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
Titus 2:1-5:
[1]But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: [2]That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience. [3]The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; [4]That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, [5]To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
This is the kind of woman I would like to be.
Enough said.
Blessings!
Andrea
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papillionkiller |
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Posted by:
papillionkiller
(Posted: 05/03/08 3:14am)
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I am glad to see the truth come through you so clear on this topic.
We each have a role and job, when we do them as instructed by scripture it is amazing how sweet it is.
My biggest fear in this teaching is the old hat of women feeling inferior, which is a lie.
It was hard to determine on some of the earlier post if this was the issue or not so I hesitated.
The difference (not lesser) is the key, each have responsibilities the other can't do or do as well.
There are many spiritual reasons for this set up of women, men and God.
This scripture doubles for the Church, Jesus to God relationship.
Still I must say, it is worth the study to see what Paul had to deal with in Corinth.
It is also worth the study to know there is probable cause to believe Paul was divorced.
As backdrops to these scriptural writings. Not that it changes anything of what is meant.
Some of the most blatantly simple scripture instruction written yet hard for many to eat.
Great job,
P-killer
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kraftykatz |
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Posted by:
kraftykatz
(Posted: 05/03/08 2:32pm)
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People read the same scripture and to some it clearly states one thing but to another it clearly states something else. The words are not twisted to say something else, but rather a different interpretation of what the words themselves actually mean. God's word is absolute. However our finite minds are not absolute in our understanding. Each and everyone of us could be wrong even those who think they got it perfect.
KraftyKatz
 drinking tea
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youaregolden |
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Posted by:
youaregolden
(Posted: 05/03/08 6:41pm)
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All I have to say, is the Bible is TRUE all around. And we as humans cannot truly grasp what the exact truth of the Bible is. BUT the basis of it is CHRIST. He came, lived a perfect life, died in our place, and then rose from the dead. Through HIM we have eternal life.
But I do believe the Bible has an Absolute truth in every subject. Each Christian has certain convictions from the Holy Spirit about their lives and such, but there are some things that cannot be ignored. Some truths that are right there and you cannot ignore them.
That is what this blog was about. So many people ignore the basic truth that God said NO to women pastors, and we must accept that truth, and not say that it is just one persons interpretation. But when someone clearly reads this Scripture, asking God to open the heart to the truth with no personally bias, then it is plainly shown, God said NO. That's all I am saying.
YSIC,
-Golden 
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joeolson |
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Posted by:
joeolson 
(Posted: 05/04/08 1:02am)
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Golden,
Please keep letting the Holy Ghost lead you to understanding the scripture. When people really come to God the Holy Spirit is going to convict them about things, feelings, beliefs etc... One of two things will happen at this time. One - the person will accept God and obey his truth. Two - the person will reject Gods truth and substitute their own or just reject him period. Hence the 100 billion million different kinds of religion including ones that do not believe in God. Your blog was good and from the word of God. God does not care what religion we are, we will be judged according to his word not denominational beliefs. Keep on keepin on.
I pray God keep teaching you.
God Bless.
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seraphim |
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Posted by:
seraphim
(Posted: 05/06/08 12:23pm)
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Golden you're right, the Words of God are unchangeable. THERE IS ONE INTERPRETATION OF SCRIPTURE! If we get anything from a scripture that
is different from what the original audience would have understood, we're
wrong! People of today, with their agendas (feminism, politics, and personal preference) corrupt God's Holy Word without a flinch. We HAVE TO BE VERY VERY VERY CAREFUL when it comes to scripture. Relying only personal interpretations of the Word just leads to cults and apostasy.
The Bible is NOT some "spirit-buffet". We can NEVER pick and choose what
we want it to mean. Sorry KraftyKatz, with all due respect, but you're wrong.
There may BE different interpretations, but they only shed more light on the same SOLID TRUTH, true interpretations will never contradict.
May God cleanse us from our opinions and agendas. May He guide us all in the reading and study of His Word. Blessings all of you. Don't fight the truth.
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kraftykatz |
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Posted by:
kraftykatz
(Posted: 05/06/08 12:57pm)
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Maybe the word should be the Comprehension of the meaning of the words used rather than interpretation.
With all do due respect,
everyone seems to forget that Deborah was chosen by GOD to be a leader.
Personally I am neither FOR or AGAINST female pastors.
I just refuse to condemn them and for that I seem to be condemned..
KraftyKatz
drinking tea
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yokhannan |
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Posted by:
yokhannan
(Posted: 05/06/08 3:32pm)
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"Your daughters shall prophecy... and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my Spirit" (Joel 2:28, 29).
The Bible as Final Authority:
The history and current practice of the Chuch give demonstration that God can and does bless the public ministry of women. Yet there is currently much debate concerning the proper role of women in spiritual leadership. So it is appropriate to ask if Scripture describes any limits to this public ministry. We all agree that Scripture must be our final authority in settling questions of faith and practice. But when born-again Christians following proper hermeneutical principles, come to reasonable but differing interpretations, we do well not to become dogmatic in support of one position. We as the church must affirm the inerrancy and authority of Scripture. We desire to know for certain what God expects of us. When we come to a sure understanding of His divine Word, we are committed to declaring and obeying those clear instructions. But we also exercise caution in giving authoritative importance to interpretations that do not have indisputable support from the whole of Scripture. Although the Holy Spirit may be active in the work of translation and interpretation, we cannot claim inerrancy for interpretations (even of extant Hebrew or Greek texts).
Historical and Global Precedent:
In the early days of most revivals, when spiritual fervor is high and the Lord's return is expected at any time, there is often a place for, and acceptance of, the anointed ministry of women. Over time, however, concerns about organization and lines of authority begin to emerge, and the group moves toward a more structured ministry. As institutional concerns come to the forefront, the spiritual leadership of women is accepted less readily, and church leadership becomes predominately male. Across most denominational lines, this experience has not been an exception to this progression.
Twentieth-century practice among Christians around the world reveals evidence of a genuine struggle to apply biblical truth in various cultural contexts. In some settings, female spiritual leadership is readily accepted; in others, though women may have limited ministry, leadership posts are withheld from them. At times there is inconsistency between the leadership a female missionary has at home and that which she has on the field, or between her opportunities and those of a national female. Indeed, culture has influenced the extent of leadership a woman has been allowed to share. The Church must always be sensitive to cultural concerns, but it must look to Scripture for the truth that applies to all times and cultures.
Biblical Examples of Women in Ministry:
Old Testament history includes accounts of strong female leadership. Miriam was a prophet, one of the triumvirate of leaders God sent to Israel during the Exodus period (Exodus 15:20). Deborah, as prophet and judge, led the army of the Lord into successful combat (Judges 4 to 5). Huldah, also a prophet, authenticated the scroll of the Law found in the temple and helped spark the great religious reform in the days of Josiah (2 Kings 22; 2 Chronicles 34).
The New Testament also records ministering women in the Church Age. Tabitha (Dorcas) is called a disciple and had a ministry of helps (Acts 9:36). Philip had four virgin daughters who prophesied (Act s 21:8,9). Euodia and Syntyche were Paul's coworkers who shared in his struggle to spread the gospel (Philippians 4:2,3). Priscilla was another of Paul's exemplary "fellow workers in Christ Jesus" (Romans 16:3,4, NIV). In Romans 16, Paul greets a multitude of ministering persons, a large number of them women.
Phoebe, a leader in the church at Cenchrea, was highly commended to the church at Rome by Paul (Romans 16:1,2). Unfortunately, biases of modern English translators have sometimes obscured Phoebe's position of leadership, calling her a "servant" or "helper", etc. Yet Phoebe was diakonos of the church at Cenchrea. Paul often used this term for a minister or leader of a congregation and applied it specifically to Jesus Christ, Tychicus, Epaphras, Timothy, and to his own ministry. Depending on the context, diakonos is usually translated "deacon" or "minister." Though some translators have chose n the word deaconess (because Phoebe was a woman), such a distinction is not in the original Greek. It seems likely that diakonos was the designation for an official leadership position in the Early Church.
Junia was identified by Paul as an apostle (Romans 16:7). But many translators and scholars, unwilling to admit there could have been a female apostle, have since the 13th century masculinized her name to Junias. The biblical record shows that Paul was a strong advocate of women's ministry.
The instances of women filling leadership roles in the Bible should be taken as a divinely approved pattern, not as exceptions to divine decrees. Even a limited number of women with scripturally commended leadership roles should affirm that God does indeed call women to spiritual leadership.
A Biblical Survey of the Role of Women in Ministry:
Of primary importance in defining the scriptural role of women in ministry is the biblical meaning of "ministry". Of Christ our great model, it was said, "For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many" (Mark 10:45). New Testament leadership, as modeled by Jesus, portrays the spiritual leader as a servant. The question of human authority is not of primary significance, though it naturally arises as organization and structure develop.
Genesis 2:18-25:
Some expositors have taught that all women should be subordinate to adult men because Eve was created after Adam to be his helper ("help meet", KJV). Yet the word ezer ( "helper" ) is never used in the Hebrew Bible with a subordinate meaning. Seventeen out of the twenty times it is used, it refers to God as the helper. Instead of being created as a subordinate, Eve was created to be a "suitable" (kenegdo) helper, or one "corresponding to" Adam.
Some argue that God created men and women with different characteristics and desires, and that these differences explain why leadership roles should be withheld from women. Others attribute these perceived differences to culture and social expectations imposed on children from birth to adulthood. Physical differences and distinctive biological functions are obvious; but it is only by implication that gender distinctives can be made to suggest leadership limitations.
Paul's Emphasis on Charismatic Ministry:
Ministry in the New Testament is charismatic in nature. It is made possible and energized as the Holy Spirit sovereignly distributes spiritual gifts (charismata) to each member of the body of Christ (Romans 12:6-8; 1 Corinthians 12:7-11,27,28; Ephesians 4:7-12; 1 Peter 4:10,11). While some gifts are a spontaneous work of the Spirit and others are recognized ministry gifts to the Body, all are given for service without regard to gender differentiation. For example, the gift of prophecy is explicitly for both men and women: "Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy" (Acts 2:17). That women received and exercised this gift of the Spirit is well attested in the New Testament (Acts 21:9; 1 Corinthians 11:5).
If Peter found certain statements by Paul hard to understand (2 Peter 3:16), then it is no surprise that we, who are removed by 1900 additional years of history, would share his struggle in interpreting some Pauline passages. And we, like Peter (2 Peter 3:15), must respect and love our brothers and sisters who hold alternative interpretations on issues that are not critical to our salvation or standing before God. The Church needs to allow for these interpretations be expressed and practiced in love and consideration for all of God's children, both men and women.
First Corinthians 11:3-12:
The statement that "the man is the head of the woman" has for centuries been used to justify the practice of male superiority and to exclude women from spiritual leadership. Two alternative translations for kephale ( "head" ), debated widely by contemporary evangelical scholars, are (1) "authority over" and (2) "source" or "origin." Both meanings can be found in literature of Paul's time.
Taking the passage as a whole, the second meaning fits as well as or better than the first meaning, leading to the summary statement of verse 12: "As the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things [are] of God." Even the relationship between the eternal Son and the Father--"the head of Christ is God" (11:3) -- fits better as "source" than "authority over" (cf. John 8 :42). Without attempting to resolve this debate, we do not find sufficient evidence in kephale to deny leadership roles to women (in light of biblical examples of women in positions of spiritual authority, and in light of the whole counsel of Scripture).
First Corinthians 14:34-36:
There are only two passages in the entire New Testament which might seem to contain a prohibition against the ministry of women (1 Corinthians 14:34 and 1 Timothy 2:12). Since these must be placed along side Paul's other statements and practices, they can hardly be absolute, unequivocal prohibitions of the ministry of women. Instead, they seem to be teachings dealing with specific, local problems that needed correction.
There are various interpretations of what Paul was limiting when he said, "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak" (14:34). Options include (1) chatter in public services, (2) ecstatic disruptions, (3) certain authoritative ministries (such as judging prophecies), and (4) asking questions during the service. Yet, Paul does allow women to pray and prophesy in the corporate service (1 Corinthians 11:5).
Although we may not solve all the difficulties of this chapter, it should be easy to conclude that this passage does not prohibit female leadership, but like the rest of the chapter, it admonishes that "all things be done decently and in order" (1 Corinthians 14:40).
First Timothy 2:11-15:
The meaning and application of Paul's statement, "I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man" (1 Timothy 2:12), have puzzled interpreters and resulted in a variety of positions on the role of women in ministry and spiritual leadership. Is the prohibition of women teaching and exercising authority a universal truth, or was Paul reporting his application of divine truth for the society and Christian community to which he and Timothy ministered?
From the above survey of passages on exemplary women in ministry, it is clear that Paul recognized the ministry of women. Yet there were some obvious problems concerning women in Ephesus. They were evidently given to immodest apparel and adornment (1 Timothy 2:9). The younger widows "learn to be idle,... and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not" (1 Timothy 5:13). In his second letter to Timothy, Paul warned against depraved persons (possibly including women) who manipulated "weak-willed", or "gullible", women (2 Timothy 3:6, NIV).
A reading of the entire passage of 1 Timothy 2:9-15 strongly suggests that Paul was giving Timothy advice about dealing with some heretical teachings and practices involving women in the church at Ephesus. The heresy may have been so serious that he had to say about the Ephesian women, "I am not allowing women to teach or have authority over a man." But we know from other passages that such an exclusion was not normative in Paul's ministry.
First Timothy 3:1-13:
This entire passage has been held by some to confirm that all leaders and authorities in the Early Church were intended to be, and indeed were, males. It is true that the passage deals primarily with male leadership, most likely because of majority practice and expectations. When there were women leaders, like Phoebe, they would be expected to meet the same standards of character and behavior.
Translations of verse 11 present evidence of the translator's choice based on personal expectations. The word gunaikas can be translated as either "wives" or "women," depending on the translator's assumptions concerning the context. One rendering leaves the impression that these are qualifications for deacons' wives; the other suggests this exhortation is addressed to female spiritual leaders.
Although the first-century cultural milieu produced a primarily male church leadership, this passage along with other biblical evidence of female spiritual leadership (e.g., Acts 21:9; Romans 16:1-15 ; Philippians 4:2,3) demonstrates that female leadership was not prohibited, either for Paul's day or for today. Passages which imply that most leaders were male should not be made to say that women cannot be leaders.
Galatians 3:28:
Those who oppose allowing women to hold positions of spiritual leadership must place contextual limitations on Galatians 3:28. "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
Some interpreters restrict the meaning of this triad to salvation by faith or oneness in Christ. That truth is certainly articulated throughout Scripture. Yet the verse carries a ring of universal application for all our relationships, not just an assurance that anyone can come to Christ. "Neither Jew nor Greek.... neither bond nor free... neither male nor female"--these are basic relationship principles to which faithful followers of Christ must give highest priority.
The God of the Bible has "no respect of persons" (Romans 2:11; cf. also 2 Samuel 14:14; 2 Chronicles 19:7; Acts 10:34; Ephesians 6:9). He calls whom He will and gives gifts and ministries as He chooses; man must not put limitations on divine prerogatives. In Christ we are truly set free from sin and its curse, which separate from God and elevate or demean according to race, social standing, or gender.
To Conclude:
After examining the various translations and interpretations of biblical passages relating to the role of women in the first-century church, and desiring to apply biblical principles to contemporary church practice, we should be able to conclude that we cannot find convincing evidence that the ministry of women is restricted according to some sacred or immutable principle.
We should also be aware that the ministry and leadership of women are not accepted by all individuals, both within and outside the Christian community. The existence in the secular world of bigotry against women cannot be denied. But there is no place for such an attitude in the body of Christ. We should acknowledge that attitudes of secular society, based on long-standing practice and tradition, have influenced the application of biblical principles to local circumstances. We should desire to respect yet help redeem cultures which are at variance with Kingdom principles. Like Paul, we must affirm that the Great Commission takes priority over every other consideration. We must reach men and women for Christ, no matter what their cultural or ethnic customs may be. The message of redemption has been carried to remote parts of the world through the ministry of dedicated men and women. A believer's gifts and anointing should still today make a way for his or her ministry. The ministry is not a profession to which men or women merely aspire; it must always be a divine calling, confirmed by the Spirit with a special gifting.
It is God who divinely calls and supernaturally anoints for ministry -- and we His children must continue to be open to the full use of of ministers gifts in ministry and spiritual leadership, be they male or female!
As we look on the fields ripe for harvest, may we not be guilty of sending away any of the reapers God calls. Let us entrust to these women of God the sacred sickle, and with our sincerest blessings thrust them out into the whitened fields.
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happytoberestored |
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Posted by:
happytoberestored
(Posted: 05/06/08 4:03pm)
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Amen Yokhannan. Thank you for reminding us all that on matters not critical to salvation, we must all be willing to have a broader perspective.
The fields are ripe for sure.
h2br
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reborn |
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Posted by:
reborn
(Posted: 05/06/08 5:36pm)
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I just wanted to start off by saying I do know this is a hot button issue. But I have to express my stance on this subject and hope that we can all find common ground and agreement. As for Yokhannan scholarly interpretation I am very aware of the time that the Lord has used woman in leadership roles but the problem with the scriptures you have used as examples are very vague as to why he used woman in those leadership roles? If we look at the the bible as a whole we see males are in the leadership roles most of all the time from the old testament and the new. Imatter of fact most of the books of the bible were written by males life leadership prophets Levitical Priests, Disciples were all males.
Now I do agree with you that the church should not hinder woman in ministry especially if they have gifts from the holy spirit. But when it comes to pastoring a church I disagree because when the bible is looked at as a whole one can truly see that it is a position for the males. The positions of the females in ministry is to be subjected to a male elder or pastor, at least when you see the bible as a whole one can see that. When a woman is humble in such way she truly shines. That is what scripture truly teaches us.
Are there woman out there that are every bit as smart as males in theology and pastorship, Yes there is, But her place in ministry is to be subjected to an elder or a Pastor. You can not deny that this is what the bible indicates and teaches if we look at the bible as a whole. Males were meant to lead and woman were meant to be by there husbands side or if not married subjected to a male who is in authority.
But in Europe and America this type of biblical teaching is blasphemous because some of the Liberal and new age teachings has mixed it self in with biblical teaching, teaching that this is absolutely wrong.
Let me make an example as to why my point of view is correct and how it is accepted all over the world except western civilization. Lets say a woman pastor wants to teach and preach the gospel in a muslum country. They will not have it or want to hear her. Because They do not believe a woman should be in such a leadership position. This same thinking and mind set is not just embraced in the middle east but almost all over the world. They all see woman in such leadership roles as an abomination and they will be turned off immediately. So because these people and plenty of non Muslims that think just like them should not get the gospel at all because they wont except the libral idea of a woman pastor?
I totally stand by the role of woman in church,ministry, evangelism, teaching and spreading the good news as the bible states in a whole with them being subjected to a husband and if they are not married to a church elder or pastor. This works excellently all over the world with no problems.
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paprika89 |
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Posted by:
paprika89
(Posted: 05/06/08 6:23pm)
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Quiet learning (v. 11). "Silence" is an unfortunate translation because it gives the impression that believing women were never to open their mouths in the assembly. This is the same word that is translated "peaceable" in 1 Timothy 2:2. Some of the women abused their new found freedom in Christ and created disturbances in the services by interrupting. It is this problem that Paul addressed in this admonition. It appears that women were in danger of upsetting the church by trying to "enjoy" their freedom. Paul wrote a similar admonition to the church in Corinth (1 Cor. 14:34), though this admonition may apply primarily to speaking in tongues. He wasn't saying women couldn't be pastors, he gave that order because the Ephesus church was a church that has no conduct and while the preacher spoke women would speak out of no where...so that is why Paul said this. Golden study the story of the Ephesus Church!
Respecting authority (vv. 12-15). Women are permitted to teach. Older women should teach the younger women (Titus 2:3-4). Timothy was taught at home by his mother and grandmother (2 Tim. 1:5; 3:15). But in their teaching ministry, they must not "lord it over" men. There is nothing wrong with a godly woman instructing a man in private (Acts 18:24-28) ALSO GOD NEVER SAID HIMSELF THAT WOMEN COULD NOT BE PASTORS OR TEACHERS. A pastor is a Shepherd which means "someone who watches and teaches" Golden study the story of the Ephesus church and this will all come to order. I agree with Virgina and Yokhannan-study the history first! I am going into college to go study to be a music pastor and I prayed about it for years. I actually ran away from it until God called me on it in a dream. I asked if that was his will to give me a chance, and he gave me a scholarship! If that wasn't God's will or way of saying that, then why would he give me a $17000 scholarship for it?
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doulos |
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Posted by:
doulos
(Posted: 05/07/08 1:10am)
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Dear Sam,
Whatever I have said about leadership for a woman is said with a hope and a prayer that you will be liberated by it and not stifled. It would really be a travesty if you get stifled and I am sorry if anything I've said has made you feel like you need to step back... there is no way I would want that.
You have a gift Sam, and it is evident to many of us here on CB. You have a gift for understanding the word and your maturity in it is better than many people I know twice your age! There is also something else that you do that is amazing - you actually care about the people here on CB. You care about the new people, people who are not premier members, and you take the time to read their blogs and comment on them to encourage them. That Sam, is the heart of a true servant of Christ. This is an attitude that can't be taught and can only come from God 
The giftings we have from God are for a purpose and the purpose is simple - it is to bless others with what we ourselves have been blessed with. What we receive from God, we must give too... Remember the parable of the talents? Don't bury yours!!! So keep going and keep up the good work with the bible studies. You have been blessed so that you can be a blessing.
You are feeling your way out between your understanding of God's Word and what God may want you to do. You know, I don't think a woman should head a church either but to me that does not extend to limiting women from being in authority or leadership in all contexts, and in that sense, from having a title as "pastor". Having said that, I would not oppose a woman leading a church either because the interpretation is indeed grey as is evident from the varying presentations above.
I see that there is much ministry that God is calling you to and when I speak about this issue I speak because it is evident to me you are a blessing to others and I do not want to see that being inadvertently limited.
For now, we should all just let the issue rest because as we can see it is beginning to cause a polarisation around here. Let's just stop arguing and settle on more important things. Christianity is not defined by the churches we are in or the theology we profess, it is defined by the lives we lead and the doing of what Christians are supposed to do. Faith without works is dead! So keep the blessings coming Sam  Keep the bible studies going. I for one am thankful for what you do!
There is much that God is doing in the world today that we will never appreciate if we don't look beyond the four walls of our church! Sometimes we just gotta look around and we'll see much more important stuff in the Kingdom to worry about... like the harvest as Happy suggests... or the disaster unfolding in Myanmar, as brought up by B2Y...
God bless and have an awesome day!,
Sia
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allforhim |
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Posted by:
allforhim
(Posted: 05/07/08 3:03am)
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I have refrained from adding any more here, but I must say I agree with nottheeditor. God did not give us His Word and then demand that you need a theology degree to understand it. The only thing we need is the Holy Spirit and a heart that is open to hear what God has to say on the matter and not what we want it to say. If God's Word is so complicated that we have to study history in order to understand what it says, what about us simple who have no degree? Are we to say that God's Word is not for me? Do I need someone to interpret God's Word for me? I think not, God gave us His Word, and His Holy SPirit so that His teachings are timeless and everything I need to learn from God is right there, I need no other books, they are ALL written by man, only God's Word is pure, only His Word is God Himself speaking. He warns us very specifically not to add words or to take words away from His Holy Scripture, I think it best we heed His warning. As for me and my house we will serve the Lord, no other doctrine for me. Just give me Jesus, we all have freedom in Christ, do with it what you may, but we will all stand before a just and holy God and give account for how we used that freedom. He is Savior, Lord, Holy of Holy, may we always remember that.
Blessings!
Andrea
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abelajohnb |
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Posted by:
abelajohnb
(Posted: 05/07/08 8:41am)
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I believe what we have here folks, is what we call hermeneutical dichotomy.
We have two groups of people, each able to provide solid Biblical support (thus the hermeneutical) for 'their side', yet each in are in conflict with each other (thus the dichotomy).
I believe it is things like this that eventually made me realize it was time to leave ministry inside the four walls of a church...
I remember a statement of an old-timer Christian who was a good friend and who has now gone on to be with the Lord, in that he use to always say "Where the Bible talks about something a lot, we should focus on that, where it does not talk about something a lot, we probably shouldn't, and where the Bible is not 100% clear about things, move onto other things in life." Man, I sure do miss that old guy...
meh, I've said all I'm going to say.
John.
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blessings2you |
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Posted by:
blessings2you
(Posted: 05/07/08 10:56am)
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Thank you John; certainly no more profound words could be spoken in regard to this discussion. I would say that this discussion shows WHY we have 20,000 + denominations within Christianity and more every day. Whether we like it or not, there are many issues such as this one that have no one set answer.
B2Y
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seraphim |
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Posted by:
seraphim
(Posted: 05/07/08 12:47pm)
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All I can say is that God could have written ANYTHING He wanted to.
He chose to write these words, when He could have chosen so many others. We can use up our earthly days with argument after argument, but the Bible stands. There are passages in God's Word that, to say the least, shake me up. But far be it from me to circumnavigate the clear unadulterated just because of my own feelings. I'm really not trying to come crashing down on anyone, but the Bible needs to dictate our views, not the other way around. There would not be much hope for me if I were to take my agendas and cram them into Holy Scripture. I would learn nothing, because I'd think I know it all anyway. And I would stifle the works of the Spirit by cutting down God's commandments. To truly love God is to keep those commandments (that is, anything He orders us to do). As for me, I will and I challenge all of you to hold fast to a good conscience. God is our God. We don't add Him to our life, He becomes our life. We give up our aspirations in obedience to His call (and His call does not contradict Scripture... ever). My conscience is clear.
May all of us ever only seek after God, and His eternal and absolute truth.
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kraftykatz |
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Posted by:
kraftykatz
(Posted: 05/08/08 4:48am)
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When we all get to heaven, is this debate going to even matter to God? Don't you think He is going to be more upset about the persons who never found salvation? Interesting, a blog preaching against women preachers is being preached by a woman.I am neither for nor against women pastors. There was a time I was as passionate as some of you against women leaders. The only point I tried to make is that we humans HAVE gotten God's word wrong in the past. During my Christian walk, I have met only 3 women pastors. During that same number of years I am [positive that more than 3 people have died and went to hell for a lack of knowing our redeeming savior, Jesus Christ.] Evangelism and the salvation of the lost is a far more important issue than women in leadership.
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youaregolden |
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Posted by:
youaregolden
(Posted: 05/08/08 12:10pm)
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Katz,
For the most part I agree with you but I want to point out a couple of things:
That is kind of like saying, it is OK to let a wolf stay in the sheep pack. Why let a secular belief stay in the midst of us Christians? Why let something that is not of God still linger with us? It is not safe, the wolf can devour us.
1st off, I am not "preaching." I am basically sharing a Bible study I have done and my beliefs. I am not asserting myself above anyone, nor do I think myself higher then anyone. So please, I am not preaching, just stating my beliefs.
2nd, God's word is very clear here. I don't think we have gotten it wrong unless we say that it is ok to do something that is totally against God's Holy Word.
Proverbs 30:5-6:
[5]Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. [6]Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
B2BF.. I couldn't have said it any better. Amen brother!
YSIC,
-Golden
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66books |
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Posted by:
66books
(Posted: 06/26/08 10:06am)
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It should be really evident from Genesis that since the woman was definitively created FOR the man and God has not changed the Creation Account, that women are not called to have leadership over men and that is what a woman pastor would have.
We see what happened when Eve stepped out of her place, when Adam said nothing being right there, knowing what God had ordained and, what happened to their children and future generations.
I have friends who have gone on to become pastors and we do not agree though we read from the same Bible and love each other. I have even had thoughts rise up in my mind about becoming a pastor. I rebuked them  .
This problem is like an octopus with tentacles reaching into every area of the Christian life. Of all the churches I have known with women pastors and elders not one had strong Christian men in them.
I believe God showed us in Genesis what would happen if women chose headship positions over men and men accepted it.
I don't believe men can bring a solution to this. I have asked a few brothers over the years why they do not say something when they know it is wrong. The most popular response? Husbands saying they had to go home and live with their wives and just did not want the issue to be a problem in their marriages. Others just went along with it as being progress in not discriminating against women.
How can a wife be subject to her husband in everything when she is his pastor? It is a contradiction in terms. More important we are missing | |
